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Tractor Talk Discussion Board

Re: I must be missing something...


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Posted by NCWayne on October 15, 2009 at 18:57:22 from (173.188.168.35):

In Reply to: I must be missing something... posted by IA Leo on October 15, 2009 at 17:57:21:

Having worked on heavy construction equipment including cranes, all kinds of industrial equipment, as well as spending time in the Navy on 30+ year old (at the time) ships, I came to the conslusion years ago that nothing can be "over engineered" in the manner your talking about. On the other hand I've seen waaaaay to many newer pieces of equipment/products that had way too much needless engineering time put in them making them waaaay more complicated than necessary.

One thing in general I was thinking about the other day is the setup put on alot of equipment to keep from starting an engine that's already running. There is a simple key switch that is designed to keep the start position from being reached unless the switch is first turned completely off. Even with that switch available alot of equipment has a standard key switch and then a computer sensor reading voltage off of the alternator telling it the alternator is putting out which means that the engine is turning. This info is then "computed" and the appropriate voltage is then sent all the wat back out to a solenoid on top of the started (or wherever) that breaks the start circuit so you can't apply voltage to the starter to start the engine since it's already running. See it's even long and drawn out to describe the way it works, and that's probably the simple design...LOL....The thing about it is let something as simple as a diode break down in the alternator and allow more than say .5 volt through and the computer thinks the engine is running even when it isn't. So, the alternator in all other accounts is working just fine and keeping the battery charged just like it's supposed to, but because of a bad .50 diode you've now got to replace it for $150 just to get your machine started and also eat the half day the machine is down rounding up and changing the part........

I have a subscription to Machine Design Magazine and it amazes me how many times I see things that have been simplified by 'overengneering'. heck along the lines of the start circuit look at where throttle linkages have gone. What used to be a simple $50 cable or $20 rod and ball ends , has turned into 6 or 8 wires buried in a 1 1/2 diameter (100+ wire), $2500 wiring harness, connected to a $1700 computer, controlling a $900 stepper motor, and all recieving their info from another $400 in sensors.......all just to do what a $50 cable or $20 linkage did just fine for 80 years prior.....

One thing I hear all the time is how alot of this mess is being designed in the interest of fuel, therefore money, savings. Thing is this is a good idea, when it works. Unfortunately the "extra" technology that saves the customer $2000 in fuel over the courser of a year winds up costing him $8000 in parts and labor, and another $10,000 in down time when something goes wrong. Yeah, the 'self diagnostic' features are great in theory but in the end it usually comes down to just changing parts and praying that the new part fixes it...sadly many service books nowdays state that approach to finding the problem because there is no other way because of all of the electronics and computer controls. Not a problem if you happen to have a complete machine full of free new parts readily accessible, BIG, EXPENSIVE, problem if you don't........


Maybe after this rant some would call me 'anti-progress' or 'anti change' but I'm not. What I am is against 'progress' and 'engineering' just for the sake of changing things that 'ain't broke'. The sad thing is I hear customers all the time complain about the problems with their new equipment caused by 'technology'. Have any of you seen the new computer contolled, pass code only accessible, self started equipment yet? It has a keyboard...but no key? I just saw two rental machines today, same brand and model number, just one older than the other, one had a key, one had the code. The guy with the key jumped in and the machine was started and to work in about 10 seconds...the one with the keyboard, the guy jumped in and then has to pull the paper out of his pocket and get the code, then punch it in, and then go to work....and had to do this more than once. Even worse try working on the thing when you need to start and stop it multiple times in a row. The key you reach in and turn it from outside where you need to be, the keypad you get in the machine where you can see it, then get back out, then back in, then back out.......BIG WASTE OF TIME AND MONEY IF YOU ASK ME.....True it's probably done in the interest of being 'anti theft" but they have been doing the same thing on cars for many years and how many of them has it really saved? If a thief wants something bad enough NOTHING is going to stop him from getting it or getting around the thing that stopped him the first time.......A lock only keeps an honest man honest....

OK, I got as bit wordy there but I HATE STUPID ENGINEERING....done just for the sake of doing something different...


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