Posted by NCWayne on August 02, 2008 at 12:23:18 from (166.82.164.236):
I didn't have time the other night to read everything but I just got a chance to read the majority of the responses to the origional post as well as a reply from BuickandDeere to a comment I made to his response. He makes a good point that you can troubleshoot just about any electronic control system with the proper tools and knowledge. The problem though isn't always wether you have the proper tools or not, it's the design of the systems themselves and the troubleshooting information provided by the machines's OEM. Many equipment OEM's nowdays don't manufacture all the parts they use in their machines (be they electronic, hydraulic, pneumatic, or whatever)therefore they don't always know the troubleshooting proceedures themselves. If you manage to get the info on the actual mfg for the part and are able to call them, typically, they can only tell you that it's their system and how the system works as a stand alone, not how it's designed to work in relation to the OEM's systems. If you then can figure out how to troubleshoot the system then pinpointing the problem and repairing it might not be a problem. Then again, as I stated before on the CAT I just finished with, you may "find the problem" but never know what the problem was. In my case the computer gave differing fault codes as the troubleshooting and "parts changing" progressed. It's not cost effective to have a computer technician look inside the computer module to see what was screwed up, even if he could get the propriatory info from CAT. Judgeing by the codes that showed in my case and then disappeared when the part was changed, eventually there turned out to be a computer problem, a short in the harness somewhere, and a bad solenoid on the valve that sent control pressure to the pump. A shorted wire on an older machine usually isn't a big deal. In this case every wire in the harness, wether it was engine and pump control related, or the horn and light wires, were all routed through the harness together. The way the harness was wrapped and routed it would have been cost prohibitive, if not impossible, to have spent an unknown amount of time stripping three different harness in multiple places trying to find and do what very well could have been a $5 repair to a short between two wires. Of course the short could have also been between contacts and hidden in one of the myriad connector bodies on either of the three major harnesses that made up the electrical system. That resulted in having to replace $2500 worth of harness plus labor time, due to a $5 short. There in lies another problem. All the plastics and low amperage/voltage computer mess makes a standard, old time system with full system voltage going to the component and the component grounded to the body impossible. Now instead of having a hot wire and a body ground, we have wires from the sensor to the computer, then from the computer to a relay, and then on to the controlled component and then some. In the old days it was alot typically easier, you had voltage or not, and you had a ground or not. Nowdays along with all that "they" have figured out how to cut the amount of wires by changing the frequency of the signals from the different sensors and having them all follow the same wire. Fortunately I haven't run into that yet but I can tell just hearing aboutit it's gonna be a PITA. The biggest problem I see with any of it is that the engineers fail to realize is that there is a huge difference between electronic systems on a 2500 lb car with round tires and a transmission with a neutral position that can be easily rolled onto a traspost and taken to a well outfitted repair facility with every troubleshooting and monitoring tool readily available, and the same type system on a 150,000 lb tracked machine broke down out in the middle of nowhere that would take a 250,000 lb machine to get it on a trailer. Look at the maintenance manuals and you always see this or that being done to a clean machine, in a clean shop enviromnent, on a flat, level floor. Doing just about any kind of work under those conditions usually isn't so bad. Problem is when a machine typically breaks down it's either 30 or 90 degrees outside, greasy and just plain nasty, setting in a foot of mud or 2 foot of grass, 30 miles in the middle of nowhere and 100 miles from the nearest dealership that may or may not have the parts. Then throw in factors such as the manual says to replace harness A, B, and C (which are all special order items) because the problem could be in any one of the three. Because time is money you have no choice but to order all three but because they are all special order (meaning several days to get them in) and becuse of that you can't return the two sections worth $2000 you didn't need because the first one you change solves the problem. Right then your out the $2000. True the potential was there to be down more days and out more money but to waste $2000 in order to save more still hurts the wallet. Basically it all boils down one thing. Control systems of any kind are great as long as their working properly. Repairing any of them under ideal conditions may not be all that big of a deal but when are conditions ever ideal. You'd be amazed how many times I've called a dealership with a problem to be told "that can't happen, and/or we've never seen that happen before, call us when you figure it out" (fortunately I have a good relationship with the service guys at my local dealerships). What causes more problems and expense with the newer machine is when the systems get so complex that you can't really 'repair' them because replacement of a part is less labor intensive and therefore cheaper to do, or the only choice because troubleshooting information isn't available, to me, is what makes the newer equipment junk as compared to the older equipment. To put it simply you can grease a ball end, you can grease a bearing, you can maintain an older machine and keep it going, what you can't do is maintain the computer chip making the decisions, nor the dozens of sensors giving it info nor the thousands of feet of wires carrying all that information. In my example case of the CAT it's used all to control the speed of an engine, something that used to be done with a rod or a piece of cable. Then when it's all over try to explain to a customer that's used to the old stuff why it took so long and so much money to repair his machine.....But that's just my .02 for what it's worth adjusted for inflation...
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