What's junk about new tractors revisited

I didn't have time the other night to read everything but I just got a chance to read the majority of the responses to the origional post as well as a reply from BuickandDeere to a comment I made to his response. He makes a good point that you can troubleshoot just about any electronic control system with the proper tools and knowledge. The problem though isn't always wether you have the proper tools or not, it's the design of the systems themselves and the troubleshooting information provided by the machines's OEM. Many equipment OEM's nowdays don't manufacture all the parts they use in their machines (be they electronic, hydraulic, pneumatic, or whatever)therefore they don't always know the troubleshooting proceedures themselves. If you manage to get the info on the actual mfg for the part and are able to call them, typically, they can only tell you that it's their system and how the system works as a stand alone, not how it's designed to work in relation to the OEM's systems. If you then can figure out how to troubleshoot the system then pinpointing the problem and repairing it might not be a problem. Then again, as I stated before on the CAT I just finished with, you may "find the problem" but never know what the problem was. In my case the computer gave differing fault codes as the troubleshooting and "parts changing" progressed. It's not cost effective to have a computer technician look inside the computer module to see what was screwed up, even if he could get the propriatory info from CAT. Judgeing by the codes that showed in my case and then disappeared when the part was changed, eventually there turned out to be a computer problem, a short in the harness somewhere, and a bad solenoid on the valve that sent control pressure to the pump. A shorted wire on an older machine usually isn't a big deal. In this case every wire in the harness, wether it was engine and pump control related, or the horn and light wires, were all routed through the harness together. The way the harness was wrapped and routed it would have been cost prohibitive, if not impossible, to have spent an unknown amount of time stripping three different harness in multiple places trying to find and do what very well could have been a $5 repair to a short between two wires. Of course the short could have also been between contacts and hidden in one of the myriad connector bodies on either of the three major harnesses that made up the electrical system. That resulted in having to replace $2500 worth of harness plus labor time, due to a $5 short. There in lies another problem. All the plastics and low amperage/voltage computer mess makes a standard, old time system with full system voltage going to the component and the component grounded to the body impossible. Now instead of having a hot wire and a body ground, we have wires from the sensor to the computer, then from the computer to a relay, and then on to the controlled component and then some. In the old days it was alot typically easier, you had voltage or not, and you had a ground or not. Nowdays along with all that "they" have figured out how to cut the amount of wires by changing the frequency of the signals from the different sensors and having them all follow the same wire. Fortunately I haven't run into that yet but I can tell just hearing aboutit it's gonna be a PITA. The biggest problem I see with any of it is that the engineers fail to realize is that there is a huge difference between electronic systems on a 2500 lb car with round tires and a transmission with a neutral position that can be easily rolled onto a traspost and taken to a well outfitted repair facility with every troubleshooting and monitoring tool readily available, and the same type system on a 150,000 lb tracked machine broke down out in the middle of nowhere that would take a 250,000 lb machine to get it on a trailer. Look at the maintenance manuals and you always see this or that being done to a clean machine, in a clean shop enviromnent, on a flat, level floor. Doing just about any kind of work under those conditions usually isn't so bad. Problem is when a machine typically breaks down it's either 30 or 90 degrees outside, greasy and just plain nasty, setting in a foot of mud or 2 foot of grass, 30 miles in the middle of nowhere and 100 miles from the nearest dealership that may or may not have the parts. Then throw in factors such as the manual says to replace harness A, B, and C (which are all special order items) because the problem could be in any one of the three. Because time is money you have no choice but to order all three but because they are all special order (meaning several days to get them in) and becuse of that you can't return the two sections worth $2000 you didn't need because the first one you change solves the problem. Right then your out the $2000. True the potential was there to be down more days and out more money but to waste $2000 in order to save more still hurts the wallet. Basically it all boils down one thing. Control systems of any kind are great as long as their working properly. Repairing any of them under ideal conditions may not be all that big of a deal but when are conditions ever ideal. You'd be amazed how many times I've called a dealership with a problem to be told "that can't happen, and/or we've never seen that happen before, call us when you figure it out" (fortunately I have a good relationship with the service guys at my local dealerships). What causes more problems and expense with the newer machine is when the systems get so complex that you can't really 'repair' them because replacement of a part is less labor intensive and therefore cheaper to do, or the only choice because troubleshooting information isn't available, to me, is what makes the newer equipment junk as compared to the older equipment. To put it simply you can grease a ball end, you can grease a bearing, you can maintain an older machine and keep it going, what you can't do is maintain the computer chip making the decisions, nor the dozens of sensors giving it info nor the thousands of feet of wires carrying all that information. In my example case of the CAT it's used all to control the speed of an engine, something that used to be done with a rod or a piece of cable. Then when it's all over try to explain to a customer that's used to the old stuff why it took so long and so much money to repair his machine.....But that's just my .02 for what it's worth adjusted for inflation...

Yep, thats how I feel. Granted I dont work my equipment for a living, I'm not a big fan of all the plastic and wires. I looked at a Case 99' 580 Super L with all the bells and whistles. Nice machine..Problem was I didnt like all the plastic and there was quite a bit of wiring/relays running everywhere on that machine. I didnt want to own the thing and have some weird electrical problem with it 20 years from now. -Mike

Maybe we should quit purchasing the complex equipment or change the laws?
Most of this complex equipment is due the tier I,II & III emissions regulations.
We should find a way to get rid of the malicious environmentalists who know they can"t ban technology. So they are trying to regulate everything to an halt.

Next problem is the educational system. Most schools steer the average to bright pupils into academic programs. No matter if they can swing a tool or not. The same schools attempt to stream the dull witted & malcontents to "shop class".
In the nuclear industry we are always looking for double or triple talented people who can figure out/understand systems and how they work. Then trouble shoot and repair.
The dealership of course being " the only game in town" really don"t care. The service department in most dealerships carry the company, not the sales department. The dealership is looking at the profit margin on parts and shop time. More parts sales and shops hours the better.
The old timers who were familiar with only horses,lanterns and the mail. They thought cars, electric lights, telephones and radios were terribly complicated and expensive too.
I also recall hearing old timers complain about the complicated new tractors in the 1960,1070"s. Stuff like cabs, radial tires, air condiitoning, power steering, alternators, sealed beam head lights, live pto, having both a draw bar and a three point hitch. Nobody needed more than two cylinders either.
It was considered too complicated , un-needed and too expensive.

you have it right about school. mrs 730 is retired school teacher.
she was pushed out was partly due to thinking outside of the box trying to teach the kids and make the learning fun for them.
also you can't make a kid feel bad because not everyone can be number 1. so program has been changed so everyone is equal and they all come out as a dumb azz.
now people wonder why nowdays kids can't make change or fill out a job application without making employer wonder can this kid do more than sweep the floor and clean bathroom which they won't do as they are too good for dirty work. they might have to get their hands dirty and not be able to goof off.

NC wayne, very educational and interesting post.
Seems as though progress is the creation of different problems.

you want to work on a Cat then BUY the software to plug your laptop into it and do your troubleshooing.

sounds like your customer would have saved a pile of money by just calling a CAT dealer in the 1st place then some jackleg with only a hammer, cresent wrench and vise grips.

everyone today wants machine performance and a tank of fuel to last all week and that doesent happen with out the use of electronics.

lets just remove all electronics from equipment and regress back to about late 80s or so and then listen to all the crying.

I side with NC WAYNE on the electronics issue,unless you have worked with these systems,you have no clue what is involved in trouble shooting problems.The factory,s don't give a hoot to make the system mechanic friendly,if it is only to justify their monopoly with dealerships.The technologie exists to install a monitor in the electronics to notify a problem in every wire and sensor on a machine, not just a plugin to retrieve codes wich only points to a general problem,but what causes it.It might cost $10.000 more,but will save many times that on downtime ,labor and components in the long run.But it makes great economy for all involved but the owner of the thing.
Untill that happens I will stick by the proven older mechanical stuff.

That was not very nice,but as always the best captain is on the wall.

no cat equipment every day. I know whats involved in troubleshooting systems with electronics.

dont attempt it with out the software on your laptop or your wasting the customers money

NCWayne,you are completely right.I think that there should at the minimum be a way to make all equipment run first mechanically,then add your computer crap as secondary,switch on or off as necessary.The way stuff is made now will make any mechanics life a lot harder whether or not you have the latest"software" installed in your laptop.Who is going to buy these million dollar piles of junk when the wires get old and corroded and it doesnt do anything its supposed to when you plug a laptop into it?Also what little I have seen of people using laptops to fix things is this,these people dont really know what the laptop is saying because its so general you could change lots of parts before you fixed it.If anybody was in a situation where you were being shot at,or in outer space,or just any circumstance where that machine had to run,the controll crap needs to be secondary,and run,go fast,first priority.This whole thing is about making it to where you have to take it to,or call the guy with the software on his computer crap,is just that,crap.Maybe for the price of this junk they should include a laptop,with the correct software,right on the machine,or not be allowed to sell it without it.It needs at the very least a switch to make it run and a way to troubleshoot it,or it is a piece of very expensive junk when it wont work.It should never take 3,2000 dollar wiring harnesses to make something run,and no way to tell which one is bad,software or not.There are such things as LEDs that could be lit green for good and red for bad,self diagnostics, on each of those wiring harnesses.There could be circuit breakers that kick when circuits are bad,and there can be laptops that plug in and tell you what is actually going on without the thousands of dollars of hookups and different software.Like one laptop fits all controls made.Makes sense to me.They could even make it wireless for what one of these things costs.The more that it seems like things are getting advanced,the more it seems like a few people want to take as much advantage of it as they can.The same thing happened when they first made cars,then along came mass production,and more and more standardization of parts,to where the stuff would run and you could work on it.Now it runs when it runs,but only the priveledged can work on it.That wont last very long,or there will be lots of junkyards with that stuff in it shortly.It doesnt really make a lot of difference who you can blame for it,it just needs to be fixed about the same time it started.The whole deal of not letting you know how to work on or fix something is a bad idea.