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Do your homework

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jdemaris

01-22-2008 14:11:26




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You better do your homework. An off-grid situation has certain problems I don't see mentioned in the other posts.

Hopefully, you've got a battery bank. If not, you're throwing your money away no matter what generator you use. A generator needs to be run at the peak RPM range to run most efficiently -and it needs to be sized to the job. So, to do this - you need to operate most of the time off a battery bank - and when it gets low - run the genset at peak power until the batteries are charged and then shut it down.

How are you going to charge the battery bank? Most portable generators only put out 140 - 150 volts at the peaks of the cycles. Grid power is 170 volts at the peaks. Due to this - conventional battery chargers do not work properly on most gensets. To correct, you need a generator that does make the proper current - or - use a special 10-15% voltage corrector - or - use an electronic battery charger like an Iota.

In addition - if you have an inverter/charger - many of them do not accept power from most gensets. A Trace/Xantrex mod-wave DR unit doesn't. A Trace/Xantrex full-wave SW type does.
A full-wave Outback systems usually does not.

I know many off-gridders that have wasted tons of money on bad gensets based on bad advice. It's expensive to learn the hard way. Most people in the off-grid business have lists of which generators work well with chargers , and which ones do not. Also keep in mind - that many gensets will void warrantees if hooked to an off-grid cabin or house - read the very small print.

A DC generator works best if all you need it for is battery charging. I have a 4000 watt powered by a Subaru gas and propane unit. I rarely use it though - it's basically for backup. If I had to make power for many hours - I'd use my diesel.
Many off-gridders make their own from DC auto alternators and five horse engines. The 4000 watt gensets with multi-fuel Subaru 8 horse engines can often be bought brand new for $300. The market was flooded with them awhile back due to a Telecom company that went under and had hundreds of them, brand new, in storage.

I've got three places on solar - two off grid, and one grid-tie. My small cabin in the woods (off grid) has a 1000 watt solar array, four deep-cycle batteries to make a 12 volt bank, a Trace DR2400 inverter/charger, and a 5 horse DC generator and the system works great. I've been building up there for two summers. I run power tools, my wife watches TV, etc.

In regard to fuel choices - propane is very inefficient. For your dollar - you get the least engergy from propane, more from gasoline, and more yet from diesel (especially off-road diesel).
Many people like propane anyway because it works well with an auto-start system. Diesel in cold areas can be a real problem. I own property in the Michigan UP and live here in central New York. It gets colder here - sometimes down to 35 F below - so I'm well acquainted with it.

I'm curious to hear exactly what you are using the genset for. I've worked on many off-grid systems and might be able to point you in the right direction.

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tractormarkb

01-25-2008 05:40:26




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 Re: Do your homework in reply to jdemaris, 01-22-2008 14:11:26  
I am charging 6 250 ah amg batteries, using a xantrex full sine wave inverter 2000w. running energy efficent lights bulbs and fridge, washer/gas dryer,12v well pump on a 'fall well'.I heat with wood only. I also use a 8OOW AC windmill that sometimes spins when we get a good wind.



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jdemaris

01-25-2008 07:04:26




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 Re: Do your homework in reply to tractormarkb, 01-25-2008 05:40:26  
That's close to the same system I have up in the Adirondack mountains. It's off grid, I have eight 225 AH 6 volt deep-cycle battries wired to make a 12 volt battery bank. My inverter is also a 2000 watt Xantrex but mine is the DR series that does not have as sophisticated a battery charger as your SW series. I have 1000 watts in solar panels, but no wind supplement. We run a propane clothes dryer, 19" TV and DVD player, CFL lights, 12 volt water pump, and a 12 volt refrigerator and freezer - both Sundanzers.
We had propane units before that, but the Sundanzers on 12 volts have been much more efficient overall - especailly with propane being so expensive now. One side-note on refrigeration. A friend of mine borrowed my Sundanzer freezer last summer while he camped for two months. He turned it down a bit and used it as a frig and a freezer. He used it two months with a single Kyocera 120 watt solar panel and two 225 amp 6 volt deep-cycle batteries. That's here in dark and gloomy NY with poor sunshine. He had more power than he needed and also charged power tool batteries, watched TV, etc. I'm building up in the Adirondacks every summer and running many power tools which eats up power. This requires using a generator once in awhile to charge batteries back up. Also, when running power tools, I've not been using my Xantrex inverter. It works fine - but I've been using a cheap Chinese 3000 watt inverter from Harbor Freight instead. It cost $130 new and has been bullet proof. I've used it two full summers with zero problems. I figure it saves wear and tear on my expensive Xantrex unit. In my situation - the Xantrex DR built-in 70 amp battery charger will barely make 30 amps on most AC generators. Your SW unit is supposed to be much more efficient and tolerant of cheap gensets. For me - I have several remedies. I use any cheap genset hooked to an Iota electronic battery charger and all works fine. Seems a shame though, not being able to use the one built into the Xantrex. To use the Xantrex charger, only my Honda inverter charger works - or my big Fairbanks Morse 14 KW until that's powered by a F162 Continental gas engine. Both make very clean power. I also have a 4000 watt DC genset powered by an 8 horse Subaru engine. It works great but runs on propane which is costly. In your situation - I assume you want to use the "autostart" feature that's built into the SW inverter/chargers if that's what you have? If so, watch out with new consumer-level standy generators like sold by Home Depot since many will void the warranty if they find out you've got a off-grid setup. Check the warranty carefully. If this is something you are doing long-term, and you want the best "bang for your buck", a good used generator is the way to go. Keep in mind that many get bought and never used. My Fairbanks Morse was built in 1961 and installed into a high school and was never used - not even once. It was just fired up once a year and tested. I paid $400 for it and the paint isn't even burnt off the exhaust yet. Many of these larger and older gensets are extremely heavy duty and simple to work on. I've read all the gloom and doom already posted about not buying used gensets - so I guess you have to make up your own mind. From what I've found - unlike cars, trucks , or tractors - many gensets sit for years without ever being used - especially the heavier standy-type units. I've come across many and have over a dozen. Pick your fuel of choice and work from there. Propane will be, by far, the most expensive to run - but still might be a good choice if you already have a large propane bulk-tank. A diesel came make the same amount of power at almost half the cost if you buy dyed diesel. But, the diesel will much more difficult to use in cold weather. Most off-grid experienced people will tell you nothing beats the older Kohler, Onan, Kubota, or Delco diesel standy units. If cared for, they can last forever and all can be hooked to autostart except for extreme cold setups. Also keep in mind that if you must have propane - most older gensets made for gasoline can be converted for a few hundred dollars. If you only want new - and don't have much money - you will get twice the machine for your money if you buy Chinese but do so carefully. Some of it is absolutely junk - and some other very rugged and time-proven. There are remote off-grid places all over the world using either the British Lister diesels like the Alaska poster mentioned - or the Chinese diesel clones of the Lister machine. You can buy a new 5000 watt diesel genset for $1400. You can also find a 5000 - 8000 watt Honda or Yamaha genset in "hardly used" condition for less than $1000 if you shop around. My neighbor has one he bought during the 2000 milenium scare and it's been sitting in the unopened box for 8 years. That is not uncommon. Keep in mind that even the Hondas are made in China - so if you are "anti Chinese" - well good luck finding something.

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