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Re: Farmall 450 Gas question


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Posted by the tractor vet on April 18, 2009 at 07:38:45 from (76.212.233.212):

In Reply to: Re: Farmall 450 Gas question posted by tractorsam on April 18, 2009 at 04:00:36:

We have also been down this road with the snake oil. And from whaqt we got back from the lab that did the testing on the gas that all started over a MELT DOWN of a 706 gasser with 30 hours on it after a rebuild and i am not just talking a shade tree rebuild this was a highend rebuild with line boring and up grade to 291 cu. in. rebuit cam with new lifter even a C C ing of the head magnafluxing of crank rods even a balancing of the engine hand fitting each piston to each hole with .004 skirt to wall clearance you name it it was done . This rebuild was a long time in the making as this is when we where eating a exhaust valve with every feed grinding as here is when we LEARNED all about why I H started using the LOW ASH engine oil and this started back when the 460-560 came out as guys were eating exhaust valves like M&M's during hard field work and I H found that it was cause by carbon deposit from oil that would build up on the valves and under load it would just tourch a neat little VEE out of the exhaust valves . Well i sold this one 706 to this guy that i knew but at the time i just knew him as yep he lives there and he is trying to farm with no money and not much for equipment as he almost lost it all by getting in to deep with to much brand new John deere equipment and farm price went down the tubes and his friendly banker turned not so friendly . He managed to keep his farm but had to start all over again and was trying to farm and work . He first came to me wanting me to rebuilt a plum wore out Super M that the engine was totally shot and it jumped out of third gear and had other problems in the rear end . We sat down and talked about it and i worked up a price for him and i told him that putting that much money into a S/M was plum nuts . I told him that i had a nice 706 gasser setting at a sale lot that did not sell the last sale that had a nice loader on it and that i would pull the loader off and sell him this 706 gasser with a wide ft. flat top fenders and three point with godd tires and a good T/A and stand behind it for 3 months for 3250 and i would give him 650 for his junk S/M . That would save him money and give him a better tractor that had better hyd. live PTO plus power steering . Well he said that he would really like a 4020 i told him that i could do that also But a side consul 4020 was going to raise the price just a weeeeeeee bit as at the time they were selling for 10 to 12 grand . Well what about a 3020 side consul well they are selling for between 85 to 10 grand . So for the price of one deere i could sell you three I H's . Well what about a plow , i have a nice 540 4x16 setting at a nother sale lot that is going to be dold this week but if you want i will pull it and sell you that plow for 450 . So Eugene thought about it for a couple days and took the deal . For years that tractor ran great , Till he switched oil as he found Cheaper oil from some one and switched fuel suppliers . The only repairs to that tractor that i made over the first 12 years were one generator one O/Ring and a yearly tune up till the oil thing . When it ate the first exhaust valve i did not think much about it . Pulled the head run it down to the machine shop and had the head done . two weeks later it eats a another valve , Pull the head and since it did it under warranty i get to do it again . Take it back to the machine shop and he gets to do it again . Chad the machinest and i both pull the head down and start looking real close at the valves . It was not the same valve that went the last time or on the same hole . So we both work on this head and we do a total rebuild of it with NEW guides NEW SEATS NEW FROM CASE IH VALVES SPRINGS KEEPERS AND RETAINERS set valve heights as Per the factory spec's . Put the head back on and guess what two weeks later while grinding feed she eats valve #3 . This is getting old so when i do not know the cure for a problems i go looking for someone that has more knowledge . So i start asking questions and talking to a ton of old I H mechanics and old factory rep's that i got there names from other people and a guy by the name of Bill from out in Marion Ind. who has been a old I H dealer as his family had been a long time I H dealer and he ran the service dept and they did all of the own in house machine work he and i had a four hour talk on the phone and we have had several phone chats as i am always willing to learn even at my grumpy old age and if i can pass on what i have earned and help someone then i am more then willing to do so . So he dug around and found the TSB on the oil thing and why the low ash is needed in I H engines to stop torching of exhaust valves. Well then here again on Eugene's 706 we decide to rebuild after we got the valve problem solved and this is now a couple years down the road Eugene want MORE POWER , ok i can get ya maybe 10-15 more ponys . SO we build him his engine It made more power then i had hoped for it ran super for 30 hours TILL he had this new fuel supplier bring him gas and let the local SNAKE OIL saleman sell him this wonder cure for older gas tractors for the small price of 8.50 a qt. and it would treat 250 gallon and bring the octane level up by two points so if ya just put in two qt.'s per 250 gallon you will have almost racing gas . Well after filling the farm tank with 12 qt.'s of this SNAKE OIL and 500 gallon of this supposedly 93 octane gas that the supplier dropped in the tank the 706 made it out to the far end of the field going DOWN hill but a 1/3 of the way BACK UP HILL she sized the engine. So we get to tear it apart UNDER warranty and the min. i opened up that engine i could see what had happened and from my days of playing lets GO FAST i have made more then my fair share of shell we say SPARE PARTS. and i can tell when things have gotten way to hot from a fuel related problem . SOOOoo here again we go on the HUNT for someone that is smarter then me and that can run tests on the fuel . Well we find a independent lab that will test it BUT WE MUST HAND DELIVER a one gallon sample in a new clean container . SO we do this , we never tell the lab who's gas it is or the what we think the octane of it is . And hour and a half after we dropped the sample off they call us as we are still on the road and they tell us that OH that is Ashlands gas and it just makes the 87 octane level and it has this and that in it and when it reaches peak combustion the heat level goes almost off the chart and it is doing this and that and if it was in a tractor engine that was working hard it is no wounder that your pistons swelled and started to melt and it happened so fast that the coolant temp would have never reflected the super heat that was going on till after a total melt down . and oh by the way we can not identify a couple components in that gas did you guys add something to it , yes we did something the Cen PE Co saleman told us that we needed in old gas tractors , Oh well we would like to run some test on that as well and see what it does and will do that for FREE . I would hope so as what they charged would have kept me in Crown Royal till i was in the ground . So we went back down and they ran the tests while we were there and gave us in layman's terms there results , First off there was not enough LEAD additive in it to even write your name and the rest of the JUNK was as he said old STALE fuel . Over the years while being a car mechanic and a parts manager and involved in drag racing and into the later years of working on tractors i have seen more then my fair share of the Snake OIL salesman and there fancy tests to prove there junk . The only thing that i will use is Lucas fuel treatment as i can see that it does work a lot better then ATF in diesel fuel . When i do find something that works i stick with it . As for engine oils for the I H tractors the boys at I H did all the research and they came up with and oil that works FOR THERE ENGINES and THERE HYD. As to what works for me in my car and pickup when i had the Ford with the 460 it got Castrol , 10-40 for the winter and 20-50 for summer , the wifes car got 10-30 year round . Now that i had a Dodge with a Cummins it gets 15-40 sires 3 Dello as that is the second choise that was TOLD to me by a good friend that is a service manage at cummins. So it is like this If I do not know something i am not going to feed ya a line of B/S and i will either tell ya that i do not know it or i will not post to a question that i do not know for sure how to solve that problem . So as to gas for your old FARMALL if ya want the most out of it with the least problems then ya fallow some things that i have learned the hard way and they will run like the should . Now one thing about a tractor they USE GAS AND WHEN WORKING LOTS OF GAS , BUT just how much gas does your pick up BURN PER HOUR when your pulling you trailers hauling a load .So if you took lets say 48 mph for a speed of a truck and ya sucked up 4 gallon ya got 12 miles per gallon Don't see much difference here do you???? You would be thrilled with that . So ya by a diesel and it sucks up 4 gallon per acre and it cost ya at the pump 2.27 a gallon for that diesel since ya don't go and have a 200 gallon tank filled at the farm . BUT You can get the 93 octane for 2.15 a gallon and ya complain . Case in point here my 806 diesel will burn just as much as Eugene's 706 gasser the on farm fuel we get now is the 93 for the gas and at the last drop with delivery charges it after we remove the road tax on the farm gas is still way cheaper the the diesel so it cost us MORE TO run the diesels all across the board as the gasser takes one oil filter one air cleaner , the 806 takes TWO oil filters and TWO fuel filters if the injection pump on the 806 takes a dump because of the new fuel and it is heading that way at this time it is going to cost me at my price 425 to rebuild it and while i am at it i might as well rebuild the injectors . I can buy a lot of spark plugs and points and cond. for the price of one injection pump.


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