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Ignition Coils, Still Confused?

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BlueLight

11-03-2000 14:19:19




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The Article Archive on this board explains
the ignition coil workings quite well. I just returned from my UAP store and the guy says he has 12V coils that require a ballast resistor and 12V ones that don't (built in ballast). In the conversion discussions on this board, it states that the ballast resistor is used to drop the voltage in order to keep the 6V coil.
So why do the 12V coils need a ballast anyway.? All very confusing. Let me describe my situation now. I don't
have a charging system on my tractor. I have a
wire that runs directly from my 12V battery to the coil, no external ballast. The tractor starts fast and runs great.
Can I deduce from this that I have a 12V coil?.
Can it be a 6V coil, or would that have burned
out from the start using my battery.? Since my coil works, can I be assured that it
meets the stated requirments of between 2.7 and
3.3 ohms.? (trying to save buying ohmeter) Right now I am ready to convert. The S10 alternator is mounted and it has poles 1,2 & BAT
as required. Can I use existing coil as is? Any help is appreciated.

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Gregory J. Howell

07-07-2002 17:39:02




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 Re: Ignition Coils, Still Confused? in reply to BlueLight, 11-03-2000 14:19:19  
How can I locate either "Rebuilt" or New coils for 1925-1927 Ford Tractor? Thanks for your help.



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80 Grit

11-06-2000 16:29:09




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 Re: Ignition Coils, Still Confused? in reply to BlueLight, 11-03-2000 14:19:19  
There is some good and some not so good inputs in the responses below. Surely the intent was meaningful but some of the info is just plain wrong. Just be careful with what you go with!



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Jim WI

11-06-2000 10:34:32




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 Re: Ignition Coils, Still Confused? in reply to BlueLight, 11-03-2000 14:19:19  
The OEM 6-volt coil used on some tractors (such as Ford 9N's) is actually designed for 3.5 to 4.0 volts. The purpose of the OEM ballast resistor is to drop the voltage down to that level.

There is a trick involved -- when the power is first applied, the resistor will have a lower value than after the power has been on for a while. The resistor heats up, increases in value (more resistance) and as a result, drops more voltage. When cold, this allows more power to the coil when starting and helps make up for the voltage drop caused by the starter drawing lots of power.

If you convert to a 12-volt system you can use the old coil if you add more resistance to the primary circuit -- either by replacing the OEM resistor or adding another resistor.

You can also use a 12-v coil (which may or may not need any resistor). If your 12-v coil needs a resistor and you don't use one, the life of the coil will be greatly reduced. If your 12-v coil doesn't need a resistor and you use one, the intensity of the spark will be reduced and may cause hard starting.

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Dean

11-04-2000 07:50:04




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 Re: Ignition Coils, Still Confused? in reply to BlueLight, 11-03-2000 14:19:19  
The are two types of 12v coils. They are marked either "for use with an external resistor only" or "for use without an external resistor".

The type that is used with an external resistor is really a 14v coil. The tractor's ignition system will either have a resistor mounted to or near the coil or use a shunt in the wiring harness at the starter to cause the full 14v to flow to the points only when starting the engine. This produces a hotter spark and helps with starting in cold weather. Once the engine starts, the shunt causes only 12v to flow to the points which prevents them from burning up.

The type that is used without an external resistor is a true 12v coil and must never be used with a resistor or shunt.

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Pappy

11-03-2000 21:21:13




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 Re: Ignition Coils, Still Confused? in reply to BlueLight, 11-03-2000 14:19:19  
What tractor are you working on. Give us a little more information---Please!



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Jon Hagen

11-03-2000 19:21:18




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 Re: Ignition Coils, Still Confused? in reply to BlueLight, 11-03-2000 14:19:19  
The reason the 12V cars with point type ign used a 6V coil with a resistor was so the resistor could be cut out of the circuit during starting, this would feed 12V to the 6V coil for a hot spark while cranking the engine. When the start switch is released the resistor is cut back into the circuit to keep from burning up the points and coil. A lot of confusion comes from coils marked 12V with external resistor. They only work on 12V with a resistor installed in the wire from the switch to the coil. As to 12V coil with a built in resistor, I wonder if they really have a built in resistor or just have a 12V primary winding. An ign resistor puts out a lot of heat, and I dont know if you could put that inside the coil case,Just adds a bunch of heat to the coil windings and what about coils with a plastic case?.
I converted a Moline GB propane from a streight 12V coil to the 6V coil with external resistor and a Ford starter solenoid to bypass the resistor for starting. The tractor was much better starting and point life was about doubled so coil and resistor must have drawn less primary amps in the run mode.

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larry

11-03-2000 16:21:23




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 Re: Ignition Coils, Still Confused? in reply to BlueLight, 11-03-2000 14:19:19  
A 6volt coil will over heat on 12 volts and start misfireing sometimes they crack open. The coil will not imideately burn out. So if your tractor runs for a long time ok,it's probably a 12 volt. To avoid the problem of missmatched parts i used all parts from the same car or manufactuer. From personal experince i can tell you the points and condenser will not last long without a resitor. We used to get 10 to 15 hours use for each condenser before the resitor with charge system working. Running with just a battery they last longer.

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Ken McWilliams

11-03-2000 15:56:55




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 Re: Ignition Coils, Still Confused? in reply to BlueLight, 11-03-2000 14:19:19  
BlueLight,

The reason that you may want to use a ballast resistor is to prolong the life of your points. When a ballast resistor is not used there will be more arcing across the point gap when it is opening. The resistor will reduce this problem. Put in a resistor anyway. If it starts OK leave it in. It only costs $5.

The next item I plan for my gas tractor is to use solid state ignition. I won't have to concern myself with burning the points and the ignition spark will be much more intense. Thus, I can run wider gap in the plugs, more complete burn, less missing, and easier starting in cold weather. With solid state ignition the engine will "jump" to life. It'll be running before you can get your hand off the starter switch.

Be careful about using a coil that doesn't use a resistor. It may be one designed for solid state ignition. You'll burn your points.

Ken McWilliams

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ltf in nc

11-03-2000 16:11:24




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 Re: Re: Ignition Coils, Still Confused? in reply to Ken McWilliams, 11-03-2000 15:56:55  
Ken, are you going to buy a new solid state ignition or are you going to adapt a junk yard auto system to the tractor?



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Ken McWilliams

11-03-2000 17:33:07




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 Re: Re: Re: Ignition Coils, Still Confused? in reply to ltf in nc , 11-03-2000 16:11:24  
I'll probably buy one of those units that fits under the distributor cap.

I had some electrical schematics to use the points, but run the wire from the coil through a MosFET to do the switching. The spark of any coil will greatly be increased if the points are not used to make and break the primary circuit on a coil. The points will only be used to signal the MosFET to do the switching. If done this way, a home solid state ignition can be made for less than $15 in parts.

With principle of inductance as in a coil, the faster the current is shut off, the greater the intensity of spark. When mechanical points are used the arcing begins before totally opened, and the "shut off" is not as sharp. That's why you can only gap the plugs at .025" with points. When solid state switching is employed, the gap can be geatly increased to .040" and upwards to .060".

Using a solid state off of an auto I think is too bulky and awkward. I think I would only consider using an HEI off of a GM product if I would ever try it. The other manufacturers used auxilliary boxes. For my John Deere 3 cylinder, I would have to one off of a 6 cylinder. I would probably take the whole 6 cyl distributor and make it fit onto the cam gear and engine block of the John Deere. Just use every other spark plug wire location and remove every other pickup projection on the shaft.

Ken McWilliams
Dayton, Oh

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To:. Ken McWilliams

11-03-2000 20:33:56




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Ignition Coils, Still Confused? in reply to Ken McWilliams, 11-03-2000 17:33:07  
Ken: They could make mechanical points jump a larger plug gap if they had wanted to. There was another key factor and that was the time duration of each spark. The mechanical system was slow and produced a spark that would last a long time. This long sparktime would wear down the plug quicker. The solid state devices cut that time duration down a lot and increased plug life (along with an easy increase in voltage due to being a quicker switch). As always there are several trade offs but the length of time of each spark was a major key. By the way, very early transmitters ,in the late 1800's, used only spark gaps to generate morse code. harvey

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To Harvey form Ken

11-04-2000 05:04:11




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Ignition Coils, Still Confused? in reply to To:. Ken McWilliams, 11-03-2000 20:33:56  
Harvey,

Years ago when I was racing, I would use dual point distributors. (I still have one somewhere in the garage).

The postion of the points assemblies would be slightly staggered to increase the dwell time, and still have large enough gap to break the circuit properly. When I tuned it, I would have to insert a piece of plastic between one set of point to hold them apart while I set the dwell on the other. Then do likewise on the other set.

Back then that was the only way to get enough dwell time to saturate the ignition coil for high RPM's. Then the other problem at high speeds was point bounce. Solid state took all that away.

KRM

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H MN

11-04-2000 05:44:40




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Ignition Coils, Still Confused? in reply to To Harvey form Ken, 11-04-2000 05:04:11  
Ken: ..but by far the SLOWNESS of a mechanical switch(points) was the limiting factor. Solid state switches turning on\off in the micro or nano seconds is common. Huge difference of maybe 10,000 times faster and allow for a different design in the coil. Sparkplugs can be fired better and last maybe 10 times longer. All this on a forum about 1600 RPM Farmalls..humm..all in fun. :) harvey



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James

01-05-2002 13:17:17




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Ignition Coils, Still Confused? in reply to H MN, 11-04-2000 05:44:40  
Is there anyone who can tell me how to test an ignition coil. The coil is from an allis chalmers/gleaner combine. It is a 6 cylender and is the same engine as a D-19. I have checked all of the wiring and replaced points, condenser, cap, rotor, plugs and wires. All of this stuff needed replaced anyway, but it still dos not run. That leads me to the ignition coil. How would you test the coil, and does it have a resistor in it?
All help would be appreciated.

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GEO

11-03-2000 19:26:39




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Ignition Coils, Still Confused? in reply to Ken McWilliams, 11-03-2000 17:33:07  
I thought just for the record. You can order such ignition kits on this site, just click on parts and supplies.



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