O/T Automotive Company Bail Outs.

JMHO

Areo

Government demanded the cars have emmission controls and meet mileage targets and have all sorts of safety devices. Lee Iaccoca said the price of the Pinto would skyrocket from about $2000 up to $10,000 per vehicle. He was right. The Japanese, Koreans, and now the Chinese came along and pretty much use the same technology for free that was developed at great expense by the American auto makers.

Banks should not have to be bailed using government money but they are. The government tolde them to provide easy money to people who probably could not meet the full term of the contract. So they handed out money on bad loans and ruined their own balance sheet and the customers money and all because Willy in the 90's wanted to get the votes.

Does all this make it right? NO, but they will do it anyway.

Evidently we want our government to protect us in every way possible but we don't want the bill for it.

With the history of automobiles in the USA, it's us that's been copying, not inventing. We made a lot of things better, but most of the big advances in autos were done overseas - including front wheel drive, multi-valve heads, gas engine, diesel engine, turbocharger systems, etc. Gräf in Germany had the first frontwheel drive. Clark in England invented the diesel engine. Rudolphs diesel's came years later. First turbocharger came from Switzerland. First four-stroke engine was designed by Rochas in France, and later improved by Otto in Germany.

My wife's father and grandfather were both Detroit auto engineers. Both told me of many stories about Ford Motor Co. buying foreign cars, and then taking them all part to see what could be copied. In the 70s, Ford had a "robustness" program where they tried to find a way to match Japanese durability.

The Feds and the UAW have shared in the causes of GM (and ford and chrysler) running out of cash and you want the Feds to order them around some more?

Its not just the unions or the corporations , or our trade policies, its a combination and its going to take a miracle to fix it.

Im afraid the bailouts are a joke, we need to go broke and start over.

"Unions are what saved the working class from slavery and existing like peasants. You can thank Unions for a living wage, a 40 hour work week, health insurance and paid vacations...all things employees have come to expect. And, they should."

Unions had their place in time, as did many things. Past achievements do not make them relevant today.

Slavery of blacks is what allowed the creation of large-scale agriculure in much of this country - yet we are not allowing it today.

Steam power enabled the industrial revolution in this country, yet we now get by with better alternatives.

History is full of inovations that eventually became anachronisims.

The public education system is crippled and dumbed-down thanks to powerful teachers unions. Many government and industrial jobs offer more-pay-per-skill level due to the unions.

If making a profit "isn't a sin" as you say - along with that, staying competitive should not be a sin either, and often - to do so - a company needs to hire and fire as needed, and . . . pay a wage that is competitive with the entire marketplace. Got a Union job that you think is barely fair? Fine, then post that union job on the open market and see how many non-union people will do the job for less and be grateful for the chance to do so.

I quit the Teamsters and the IBEW years ago and did fine on my own. I also don't need some union being a mouthpiece for my personal politcal views.

I am glad you are your own "man"s man", without the need of collective bargaining and were able to face the world alone and succeed. Kudo"s to you.

Your Analogy of Anachronisms doesn"t quite ring true, except for one who has shunned Unions as the root of all evil.

Whores come in all stripes. It is rumored that Elliot Spitzer paid $3500 a night for his, while a woman with the same equipment can be had in the red light district for $50. Which would you prefer? That which can be had for less, isn"t always best.

It"s no wonder the Soviets made purging the intellectuals of first importance. Goddamned educated idiots with all the answers, yet clueless.

Hitler did the same to the Jews, Stalin to the Christians.

Loose/Loose

My son in law works for a Japanese owned parts supplier in Battle Creek. They're going strong. They build mostly for Honda and Toyota,but some domestic. Those Japanese companies that have built plants here don't have those old union obligations hanging over their heads. So...It's gonna be Montcalm County all over the state and country if they fold,but I'm afraid bailing them out is just prolonging the inevitable.

If hourly-wage jobs took a pay-cut to half of what they are now, and all those jobs were adverstised publically to anyone - how long would the lines be - of people willing to work for the lowered wages? Very long, I suspect.

The UAW almost put our John Deere dealership out of business back in the 80s. They brought a nationwide strike against Deere Co. parts division and all new parts were cut off for almost a year. At the time, UAW people said that by crippling Deere Co., it would be a good show-of-force so the big automakers would concede to future demands. In the mean time, many small Deere dealers across the country suffered. We lost many good Deere customers that changed brands and never came back to Deere.

Ford, GM, Chrysler are mismanaged. Granted they are crippled by the UAW, but they did NOT have to always give in. Some better management instead of appeasement might of worked a little better.

My biggest concern is, as a nation, reserving enough of our industrial and agricultural base to gear-up for war when needed. Historically, we have relied heavily on automakers to make weaponry, etc. Heck, remember the Cuban Missle Crisis back in the days of JFK? That was caused by Jupiter missles, built by Chrysler Corp. - being pointed at Russia from a USA base built in Turkey.

I realize that other companies also supply the military. My son is an engineer for Ball Aerospace that supplies military contracts - even though they are better known for Ball food canning jars. But, in a pinch, we may really need the auto and steel companies in the future.

I kind of wonder - when Pearl Harbor got hit - if the only auto companies on US soil were Datsun and Toyota - what companies we'd used for armaments?

If GM, Ford and Chrysler are gone, how "warm and fuzzy"do you think Toyota, Honda and Nissan dealers will be when they have a monoply and you want to by a new rice grinder ?

The Japanese have not played fair in the car business since they came to the U.S. They have artifically manipulated their currency to make cars cheaper to import to the U.S.

If you want to get the "real story" which the elitist media will not tell, google TOYOTA and LOBBYING and do some research in alternative media sources.

Foreign-based auto companies are literally allowed to do lobbying and "funding" of political candidates which if done by a U.S. based company would have the U.S. executive charged with a felony.

Right now GM, Ford and Chrysler ALL make cars that meet or EXCEED mileage by imports...it's simply a fact...problem now is that people cannot get LOANS to buy anything. ALL automotive activities over the last 10yrs. have been juiced by easy money. Consumers did not buy VEHICLES, they bought the best FINANCING.

Rationalization is one of the greatest human drives. If you want to buy an Japanese based vehicle...fine...just don't bore us with all the horror stories about U.S. built vehicles. By the way, have the import buyers ever shared how much they pay "over sticker" for the privilege of getting a certain model or the "Gold Package" that they were forced to buy to get the vehicle or the "required maintenance" that costs them $1000 -$1500 yr. to maintain their pride and joy.

The big 3 would have a fighting chance if they could get out from under those ridiculous union contracts. The easy way would be the bailout, with requirement that they do so; however, with the Dems in charge, that will never happen. Only practical way is Chapter 11, and a bankruptcy judge will do the job with the stroke of a pen.

BTW, a large part of this is the credit crunch, not lack of interest in buying cars. Local Ford/ Toyota dealer had 27 deals put together one Saturday a couple weeks ago, but could only get financing put together on 5 of them. The other 22 went home disappointed. The folks who aren't buying are the more well heeled and conservative ones, who don't need in-house financing. When's the last time someone traded in a car on a new one, who really needed the new car? Most new car buyers do so because they want to, not need to. The wiser among us are just driving that perfectly serviceable 3 year old car another year or two, until things stabilize.

Used to drive GM stuff, but On-Star junk totally turned us off, as well as other issues.

Unions have broken Detroit, along with gianormous corporate waste. Both sides to blame. They (unions & corporate!) argue back & forth, and ignore the customer.

Guess what, we bought Toyota. Duh!

--->Paul

Look I am not trying to upset you or attaack you. Due to quality, I do not buy GM. And when more in health benefits than steel is in the cost of a car, something is wrong.

1: Kick unions out
2: Build a better car

That is the way for GM to prosper long term. Don't kick me, read out on the internet, lots are saying it...and I believe it...

http://blogs.moneycentral.msn.com/topstocks/archive/2008/10/28/a-government-bailout-won-t-save-gm.aspx

Work moved overseas would be manufactured to lower standards than what was mandated in the US and even the metal would not be traceable to any US standards. Garba-loy or China-loy would be good enough. Guess why there are so many vehicle recalls.

The Japanese (Honda, Toyota, Nissan) would never treat us like that however.

Henry Ford had the right idea. His brilliance was shown when he reasoned that if he paid his workers enough, they could buy a car.

The big 3 have put people out of work all over and they now wonder what has happened to their sales volume. The people are voting and Honda and Toyota sales are showing the trend.

Very glad to be back in aerospace now. By the way, I drive a Ford.

Come now, you mean too tell if I could earn 59% more in a wage package I'd stay with Toyota, Honda or Nissan? 48/81= 59% Ya right!

Then did Toyota, Honda and Missing charge 59% less than a comparable GM or Ford product? Ohh that's right, none of them build a full sized pick-up too compare with a Ford or GM.

Bush when he first took office was going to cut a fat hog in the arse and ordered the Dept of Labor too run a cost comparison between Union & non-Union Gov't contracts.

What the report showed was the Union contracts were completed 30% faster because of a higher degree of Union education, there was less start-up problems using Union contractors, general workmanship was of noticeable higher quality.

Buy Union Work Union, It pays off in the long run.

Define Union: United workers for a common goal of better working conditions.

Were all in some sort of Union. Some are just larger than others with better working conditions.

T_Bone

I work at a GM car dealer. I see plenty of things GM could of trimmed back over the years,like all the redundant parts used between GMC and Chevy and Caddy that are different but don't need to be. All they need is one brand name. I see alot of other stupid things like having to stock the same parts in Gm and AC Delco brand names. Lots of crazy programs that they pay someone to dream up and all the paper work along with it. Paying FED Ex next day freight to send you all this stupid programs materials.

These are just but a few of the things I have right now. GM can put me in charge and I'll surly trim their fat off !

Don't believe me just ask a trans expert who you trust these questions.

Some of the oil well companies around here have went to Toyota trucks years ago.