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Trees in ditches and creeks

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Dan-IA

05-15-2008 21:58:50

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I have a creek that runs through my property. It badly needs the county to come in and clean it, but I sure hope they don't because I don't want to pay the price of a new tractor for something I didn't ask for.

But the beaver dams are a pain and the thing just needs a thorough cleaning so... Hey I've got a backhoe and I know what to do with it, and I'm thinking I should be able to just go right along that ditchbank and cut out those 500+ little trees and brush and all that and just pile it up and burn it, right? I mean, it's on my property so there shouldn't be any trouble, right?

I just want to make sure all my tiles are draining. That's fair, right?

While I'm on the subject, if I have a tree growing in my road ditch, I can cut it out and burn it in my woodstove next winter because it's on my property, right?

Better to ask now than get in a heap of trouble later...

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Don-wi

05-17-2008 12:48:25

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Re: Trees in ditches and creeks in reply to Dan-IA, 05-15-2008 21:58:50

Shouldn't be any problems. We clean our creeks bout every 10 years or so. Of course we ussually have to hire a guy with either a backhoe or an excavator.

As long as you're not altering the course or filling it in, you shouldn't have any problems.

Donovan from Wisconsin

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cadet trooper

05-16-2008 17:38:19

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Re: Trees in ditches and creeks in reply to Dan-IA, 05-15-2008 21:58:50

IMHO you should just call the Army Corps of Engineers and you may just have more rights than you think with no problems and they will advise. The Corps has the jurisdiction over all the watersheds the county has none they just do what the Corps tells them to do and the county has to find the funds normally the landowner because as usual thier budget is empty the Corps also may advise you of DNR habitats or irrigation holding rententions they should know all the parties involved downstream. They're actually pretty nice folks to deal with and if you follow thier instructions they'll give you a phone number for your neighbors to call if they have a complaint been there done that and believe me that's pretty nice when an irate neighbors calls you about 10:30 at night burning your ear just tell them to talk to the hand and call this number. :-> You never hear a word again.

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kyplowboy

05-16-2008 16:53:12

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Re: Trees in ditches and creeks in reply to Dan-IA, 05-15-2008 21:58:50

I am sure many on here are going to tell you to get a permit. Every thing I ask about on here I am told I am going to jail over. That said, what you can do with the dams is take a cable and pull on some of the bigger logs. This will lossen them up and the next big rain the whole shoot"n match will roll down stream. That or you can try to find some ammonium nitrate,,,,, ,, yes I know,,,, if I lived in a civilized part of the world I would be in jail, but I live here, so don"t tell me about how illegal blow"n suff up is.

Dave

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buickanddeere

05-16-2008 15:11:32

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Re: Trees in ditches and creeks in reply to Dan-IA, 05-15-2008 21:58:50

What could possibly be wrong with a creek with trees & wildlife? Most people only ever hope to dream of having such.
All I do with the creeks through my place is to cut the thorn trees down.

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David Snipes

05-16-2008 13:56:40

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Re: Trees in ditches and creeks in reply to Dan-IA, 05-15-2008 21:58:50

In eastern Washington I cleaned out my creek and someone reported me. When I explained everything to the local Department of Ecology, they said it was traditional farm drainage and left me alone. I think it helped that I could quote the average water flow for the time of year I was digging and that I first dug a hole at the property edge to help collect any sediment.

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Mike (WA)

05-16-2008 13:34:03

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Re: Trees in ditches and creeks in reply to Dan-IA, 05-15-2008 21:58:50

Back in my PCA days, I had a customer who had low fields with a couple of ditches. About the worst looking backhoe I had ever seen was sitting spradle-legged, with the hoe flat on the ground, near one ditch. I laughed and commented, "looks like that's where the ole gal gave up the ghost." He said, "Yeah, its been in that spot for 15 years. Except for a few nights each summer, when the moon is full, it comes to life, and we do a little ditchin'." He had tried to do it the "right" way, but quickly found out that it was virtually impossible to get permits. He keeps the grass mowed along the ditch, so there isn't any tall grass to have tracks in it; also, doesn't make the work obvious, and backhoes the dirt directly into a dumptruck, so its not laying on the ground. Does it in late summer, when the ditch is dry, so doesn't have to deal with mud. He's on great terms with the neighbors, and nobody ever seems to hear a thing. When the night's work is done, he puts the machine back in exactly the same position. Its been working for him for many years.

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paul

05-16-2008 10:13:51

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Re: Trees in ditches and creeks in reply to Dan-IA, 05-15-2008 21:58:50

Typically the govt owns either the water or the ditch through which it is flowing, so you are treading on real thin ground to mess with the waterway in any way at all without asking permission. Tree huggers have gotten very unruly laws about wetlands, waterflow, and so on to be the normal these days, afecting waterflow - even just dealing eith the trees - can put you in an unfortunate legal situation.....

The road ditch is much simpler in most areas; the govt hates trees in the right of way, the utility companies running wires above or below ground hate trees in the right of way, and nearly everyone is much happier if the trees disappear safely.

--->Paul

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Walt davies

05-16-2008 08:54:22

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Re: Trees in ditches and creeks in reply to Dan-IA, 05-15-2008 21:58:50

In California when i lived there you could use all the water from a stream as long as ran back in before leaving your property.
Here In Oregon its get rediculas You have no right to use any water that has come though your property from a full time stream, can't even put in a water wheel to power a Gen or something even if it doesn't use anything but the pressure of the water against the paddles.
Now if its a somewhat stream or spring you can dam it change it use it anyway that you want.
Walt

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fixerupper

05-16-2008 08:38:10

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Re: Trees in ditches and creeks in reply to Dan-IA, 05-15-2008 21:58:50

In this area the drainage ditch is county right-of-way and is maintained with money assessed from the land owners in the drainage district that drains into that ditch. I'm sure it's that way in most areas. For the ditch that goes through my farm the easment is 80 feet wide, or 40 feet either side of the center of the ditch. For the past five years or so our county has been cleaning the trees off of the ditches with the idea that they will come through and spray any new trees every five years. I'm not holding my breath waiting to see if they do come and spray.

To clean a ditch out, a petition is need, signed by a certain percentage of the landowners. The cleaning expense is assesed to every landowner in the drainage district and it can be pretty painful. Some spot cleaning can probably be done by a landowner but he has to clear it with the county supervisors first. They probably wouldn't care if the landowner cleaned the trees out.

About thirty years ago a neighbor cleaned about 1000 feet of the end of my ditch with dynamite. It was kind of spectacular to watch and it did make a trench about six feet wide and two feet deep in the mud, but the rest of the ditch beyond it was not cleaned so the water from the new trench didn't have anywhere to go. Jim

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Mike M

05-16-2008 06:05:30

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Re: Trees in ditches and creeks in reply to Dan-IA, 05-15-2008 21:58:50

Here in Ohio the Army Corps. of Engineers controls all of that stuff I think ? and if you are in or near the newly designated wetlands YOU WIL get in deep do do if you move so much as a shovel full of dirt. This is a VERY screewed up world we live in so you better ask around and check with your county officals and such. No sense loosing everything over that ditch !

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John S-B

05-16-2008 16:46:18

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Re: Trees in ditches and creeks in reply to Mike M, 05-16-2008 06:05:30

I was told by ODNR that as long as I didn't put any machinery IN the creek, I could pull out all the trees and such in the logjam in the creek.

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gene bender

05-16-2008 05:30:35

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Re: Trees in ditches and creeks in reply to Dan-IA, 05-15-2008 21:58:50

In IOWA its county property fence row to fence row. Call county engineer to be safe. Before you get busy in the creek better check with local Gov.

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IaGary

05-16-2008 04:55:12

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Re: Trees in ditches and creeks in reply to Dan-IA, 05-15-2008 21:58:50

Dan I just went thru this with the NRCS here in Iowa.

You have the right to keep obstructions, which includes brush out of you drainage ditches.

You cannot straighten them.

Contact them and they should grant permission to do it and that way you don't have to hide anything.

Gary

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John (C-IL)

05-16-2008 04:25:40

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Re: Trees in ditches and creeks in reply to Dan-IA, 05-15-2008 21:58:50

I'm in Illinois and you are in Iowa. That is enough to make my advice worthless. I just completed a 1500 foot ditch cleaning, took out all of the trees and brush, straightened the channel and dipped the silt out of the bottom. I hired an excavator to do the work, took him 4 days and cost $2500.

I would also advise you to consult with NRCS, they will tell you that you can't do it, but there are some little known rules that let you clean a given number of feet of a ditch every year.

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Nebraska Cowman

05-16-2008 04:11:33

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Re: Trees in ditches and creeks in reply to Dan-IA, 05-15-2008 21:58:50

If you can dig quietly without anyone noticing, you might get away with it. But messing with drainage, either natural or man-made is a big no no anymore. As far as the tree if it is in the ditch it's probably on road right-of-way but I doubt anyone cares.

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Mark - IN.

05-16-2008 04:34:50

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Re: Trees in ditches and creeks in reply to Nebraska Cowman, 05-16-2008 04:11:33

I agree. To me, its common sense, but common sense doesn't exist much anymore. Clearing for drainage and ease of flow makes all of the sense in the world. But, then there will be the folks that say that some oddball almost nonexistant beaver flea has chosen it as an environment, so can't touch it, cause it to back up until it overflows and becomes a "natural" watershed that the owner can't touch but will have to pay a mortgage on.

I know what I'd do, and mum would be the word. My neighbors are reasonable enough that even if they saw me and questioned me, which I doubt they would, I'd explain it off as "Hey, better water flow towards your horses or cattle when they graze over there", which I'm sure they'd appreciate. Its the wanderers that drive out that way occasionally that I'd have to worry about asking "Hey buddy, you're not messing with the one eyed, one horned, zebra striped muskrat beaver flea, are you?".

Good luck.

Mark

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720lyle

05-16-2008 03:45:18

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Re: Trees in ditches and creeks in reply to Dan-IA, 05-15-2008 21:58:50

usually there is a water shed district that shares the cost of ditch repair. Check with the authorities, you may get paid for cleaning it up.

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Armand Tatro

05-16-2008 03:38:57

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Re: Trees in ditches and creeks in reply to Dan-IA, 05-15-2008 21:58:50

Don't ypu have a drainage district to take care of drainage problems and maintain ditches? Armand

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kyhayman

05-15-2008 22:14:15

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Re: Trees in ditches and creeks in reply to Dan-IA, 05-15-2008 21:58:50

I dont even want to pretend to give you advice for out of state. Check with you local NRCS office for starters. Have them send someone out to work it up and give it to you in writing if you need permits or not and if so from whom.

It could be as simple as what you describe, or, it could become a nightmare between the Corps of Engineers, State Division of Water, local irrigation or drainage district, EPA, and who knows who else.

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onefarmer

05-15-2008 22:10:24

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Re: Trees in ditches and creeks in reply to Dan-IA, 05-15-2008 21:58:50

Trees and brush are usually fair game. Just don't start digging.

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Bendee

05-15-2008 22:44:17

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Re: Trees in ditches and creeks in reply to onefarmer, 05-15-2008 22:10:24

water courses are different,I would check with the authorities.The point being it's not your water.

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mark

05-16-2008 04:47:36

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Re: Trees in ditches and creeks in reply to Bendee, 05-15-2008 22:44:17

whose water is it?

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Chad Franke

05-16-2008 05:46:47

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Re: Trees in ditches and creeks in reply to mark, 05-16-2008 04:47:36

Not to be a smart #@@, but it's whoever owns it. Most states (all around here) have prior use doctrines, whoever owns the water rights that were secured first gets water first. Water doesn't belong to the property it flows on/from, it's a separate ownership right. Here in Colorado you can get fined for having a water collection barrel on your downspouts. As soon as that water falls, it belongs to someone.

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mark

05-16-2008 06:13:41

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Re: Trees in ditches and creeks in reply to Chad Franke, 05-16-2008 05:46:47

I'm not being a smart a$$ either. Here in the FREE east, or at least here in Kentucky, you have access to all water flowing through your property. Once God drops it out of the sky and it hits on your land, it belongs to you, not some GD politician, the State, or somebody in Arizona below Glen Canyon Dam. You folks out west really need to revamp those archaic water laws, you're being robbed, and sit still and allow it to continue.

I can go to any free flowing stream adjacent to my property....that means creek and or river, and draw all the water I need from it. I can't dam it up and stop the flow, but I can draw water out of it for whatever.....irrigation for example.

What are folks out there going to do when the State comes in and says you can no longer breathe the air, it belongs to the city of Los Angeles, who bought the air rights? NO.....that isn't ridiculous. Water, air and soil are the three main constituents required to support life and if the State can take or sell to somebody else.....what rightfully is yours, ie., the water that falls on YOUR land.....then they can sell your air as well.

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Chad Franke

05-16-2008 06:52:53

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Re: Trees in ditches and creeks in reply to mark, 05-16-2008 06:13:41

You've got to understand, we commonly get single digit precipitation for the year... When we want to mow ditches or fields, it takes mowing once a YEAR! It takes 2 years of precipitation to grow one wheat crop on dryland farms. There have been fights resulting in deaths when this area was settled because somebody cut off all the water flowing in a stream. That's why ditch companies were formed, and water rights were mandated by law. The water laws here are good, they are fair, and they are the best for our situation. Water rights can be bought/sold, may or may not come with the land. You can still file for water rights, but they will be so junior you will rarely get any water. Water rights can cost more than the land to grow the crops on. The problem comes when people don't understand the laws and the rules that govern water.

It's a different situation here than most places, there is NOT excess water. The laws are not archaic, they are necessary. What works for you in Kentucky resulted in water wars here in Colorado, and would again if we didn't have the prior use doctrine based water rights. Get over yourself.

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mark

05-16-2008 07:36:45

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Re: Trees in ditches and creeks in reply to Chad Franke, 05-16-2008 06:52:53

chad,

No need in your smart lip, I have nothing to get over. Nobody but me owns my water. If you like the fact that your water goes to somebody else, revel in it! I never once said anything about cutting the water off from folks downstream....in fact, I patently stated that I/we CANNOT dam the stream, but can draw from it.

Colorado has trillions of gallons of snow melt every year from the various Rocky Mountain ranges there. I also realize that the area is dryland farming. I was born at night, but NOT LASTNIGHT, bub.

Personally, I don't give a flying rats a$$ one way or another. If you like paying for the water that falls on 'your' land.....dig deep and have at it.

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KRUSS1

05-16-2008 09:31:40

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This should take the pressure off gas and oil in reply to mark, 05-16-2008 07:36:45

Oh goody! Now we can fight about who can do what with whose water for a few weeks.

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