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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

How to make old gas tractors run well

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Codie

04-04-2008 12:12:43




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I have an Oliver 1550 gas that runs well and has good power but it constantly carbon fouls the plugs. I have converted it to electronic ignition, put on a high energy coil, tryed lead substitutes, and have the carborator settings set as lean as it will run. I have posted on the Oliver board and got some good ideas but none seemed to work. Does any one have any thoughts? Thanks for any help.




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Brian Jasper co. Ia

04-05-2008 08:52:05




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 Re: How to make old gas tractors run well in reply to Codie, 04-04-2008 12:12:43  
I wasn't going to weigh in until I saw what tractor vet wrote. Why do you need 95 octane fuel for an engine in the 7:1 compression ratio area? Thats wasting money. If you find an engine that runs better on premium than regular that it was designed for, there is a problem. Usually its carbon buildup causing increased compression or hot spots. Both cause pre ignition (pinging or spark knock). What are you going to do when 95 octane isn't enough? Using octane above whats recommended is only treating the symptom and not the cause. Premium does not "burn slower". Octane in simple terms is "flash point". An engine needs only enough octane to not set the fuel charge off by a hot component. A glowing bit of carbon is not as hot a spark, but it will set off a fuel with lower flash point. There's no substitute for routine maintenence. Have your fuel injectors and induction cleaned on a fuel injected vehicle every 30k. The best fix for that Oliver would be remove the head to remove the carbon build up and grind the valves. Fully inspect the intake for cracks/leaks. Verify you have the correct plugs.

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the tractor vet

04-05-2008 17:19:27




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 Re: How to make old gas tractors run well in reply to Brian Jasper co. Ia, 04-05-2008 08:52:05  
Well Boys that is what was the grade of fuel back then And some Coops offered farm gas and it was 90-93. Over this way there are still a bunch of older gas tractors that are used everyday on dairy farms and i have seen many problems with the 87 octain use in them . I even went as far as having the gas that was hauled out to one farm tested in a lab and what i learned form them as to what happens during combustion. First off it BURNS WAY HOTTER it makes oxygen from the additive that is in it to make the EPA happy . this is fine for a car or light truck NOT a working Ind. engine . I tryed everything that i know to make these engines run correctly and nothing worked . TILL we switches gas and went to the 93 . Up till the hightest got to be 20-30 a gallon higher in price i ran it everything . When i was haulen in tractors and equipment that i was buyiing out in Ind. and Ill. i ran and 88 F350 4X4 dually pullen a 28 foot goose neck empty weight on truck and trailer was 15000 it had a 460 and a 5 speed never towed loaded in 5th Running under load the engine was twisten 32-3400 i ran hightest in it as the 87 would ping and fuel milage went down Fully loaded she would get between 10-12 mpg and i still have my records for that truck and show ya everyone of the 287000 miles and every drop of gas . I farmed with a ratty old 706 gas with a 291 and ran hightest in Ran that tractor till there was nothing left but parts. NEVER a problem with the engine or plugs A lot of my good friend run 706 gassers and they all run the 93 . Now if ya don't believe me then look in the owners manual for a 706 gas built from 1963 till 1967 and THE BOOK TELLS YA NOTING LESS THEN 93 octain gas is to be used in that tractor. Now the 50 seires OIL ALL OVER was built in that same time frame and it also had about the same requierments for fuel. Now here you guys that just play with tractors or farm are tryen to tell me that this is not so . Well let me put it to you this way and i am at the stag in life i don't care what i say or how i say it When you have built as many engines as i have gas or diesel in the 40 some years that i have twisted wrenches raced cars and pulled tractors fineuned many engines that either ran down the drag strips around here and either walked away with the money or all the guys that i tuned there tractors that won . Then you can tell me how things work. Just how many of you can trick a old dist.or tweek a carb to gain power with out over fueling or built a hot diesel . How many of you have done total machine work on engines balanced a rotating assy. CC heads . Taken parts out of a dumpster and built a winning pulling tractor with someone junk . And like i said try it it's only money ya can't take it with ya . ANd if the friggen hightes was not so high i would be running it in the wife Durango as when we bought it that is what we started it off on and got just shy of 18.4 MPG on a trip on a 03 Durango with the 360 ( not into this metric B/S ) Always thought that it should do better And was talken to the service manager and he told me that oh don't run the 93 ok will try the 87 , Now the best it gets is 14.7 on a trip . Nothing changed nothing reset. Old 706 on the plow a set of 4x16's running 1st high in corn ground 8-10 inches deep worken the snot out of it 4.5-5 gallon and hour . 806 D same plow same fields same depth same tires same gear 5-5.5 gph And at todays prices it's cheaper to RUN THE GASSERS. Yes i lashed at ya but like i said i tell it like it is. You set that gas tractor correctly and run the correct gas as long as it is not pumpen four qt's of oil a day out the stack she will run better run cooler and make more ponys and use less fuel as ya get a longer cooler burn off the 93 and this come from a Lab in Columbus Ohio.

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buickanddeere

04-05-2008 09:34:19




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 Re: How to make old gas tractors run well in reply to Brian Jasper co. Ia, 04-05-2008 08:52:05  
I was going to answer tractor vet with the same answer but you beat me to it. Flame speed has nothing to do with octane rating. As you stated octane or cetane just refers to the ignition temp of the fuel. Now during detonation caused by too low octane.The flame speed will be increased but this is a symptom, not a cause. As for plug fouling. Same tractor, same fuel. Two different operators. One operator fouls plugs and the other operator doesn't?

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Brian Jasper co. Ia

04-05-2008 20:57:03




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 Re: How to make old gas tractors run well in reply to buickanddeere, 04-05-2008 09:34:19  
Try again. The knock you're hearing when an engine pings is 2 flame fronts colliding. One being set off from a hot spot like a glowing piece of carbon, the other from the spark plug. Octane has no effect on burn time. Clean out the EGR passages of that 460 and she won't ping on 87. Thats one of the benefits of EGR. That old 460 only has an EGR valve position sensor and can't actually tell if there is enough flow.

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the tractor vet

04-06-2008 07:35:19




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 Re: How to make old gas tractors run well in reply to Brian Jasper co. Ia, 04-05-2008 20:57:03  
Well the old F350 is long since gone and the EGR was cleaned out . Plus other things done to it . Plus the 93 octain gas Does burn longer and cooler . This is as per the lab reports .



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Walt davies

04-04-2008 21:39:23




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 Re: How to make old gas tractors run well in reply to Codie, 04-04-2008 12:12:43  
Do a compression check, if its low then that is your problem. Check your manual to see what it should be.

Walt



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Codie

04-04-2008 18:36:57




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 Re: How to make old gas tractors run well in reply to Codie, 04-04-2008 12:12:43  
I have tried much of what has been mentioned here with little success. I have ran it with the air hose off the carborator and checked the air filter and tube which was fine. I run solid copper plug wires. I have played with the carborator until I get crazy. I also run hightest gas and have not noticed any water or debris in the fuel or tank. I am not smart enough and don't know anybody smart enough to play with the distributor much. The 1550 is a good tractor other than this problem. It will keep up with our White 2-70 in the field which will dyno 70+ hp so I don't believe it is a real serious problem or it would not run that strong. I also have 2 Oliver 770's and a JD B which run perfectly on regular gas. I bought the 1550 when I was 16 and I just turned 19 so I still have a lot to learn but I learn a lot from folks as good as all of you who share their knowledge with me. Thanks for all of the information!

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Scott in WA

04-04-2008 21:08:02




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 Re: How to make old gas tractors run well in reply to Codie, 04-04-2008 18:36:57  
Codie, I hate to hear you say you aren't smart enough to play with the distributor because that's probably not true. By virtue of the fact that you are smart enough to get on the internet, find an excellent source to help you with your problem and write a well written description of your problem I would say you are plenty smart. Even to play with a distributor. You may not have enough experience with distributors to feel comfortable with playing with them at this time.

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Bob M

04-04-2008 18:51:44




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 Re: How to make old gas tractors run well in reply to Codie, 04-04-2008 18:36:57  
We had similar difficulties for several years with our Oliver 1600. Switching to plugs several heat ranges hotter (from N11Y to N14Y) solved the problem.

A couple other things that will help:

- When cold starting use as little choke as possible. After it starts get the choke open as quick as you can.

-Don't let the engine idle - if it's not pulling a load, shut it down!



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Jerry/MT

04-04-2008 18:11:32




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 Re: How to make old gas tractors run well in reply to Codie, 04-04-2008 12:12:43  
You are sure that it is carbon fouling? Dry, fluffy soot? Are you sure you have the correct plugs and the correct firing order? Is you ignition system putting out a FAT, BLUISH-WHITE SPARK? Is your timing correct and is the advance working correctly?
Your mixture is too rich so you carb needs adjusting OR you have an airleak that"s pretty bad downstream of the metering system in the carb. Look for a cracked intake manfold, bad intake manifold gasket,etc and make sure that your thermostat is working properly.

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Mark - IN.

04-04-2008 18:04:24




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 Re: How to make old gas tractors run well in reply to Codie, 04-04-2008 12:12:43  
Drove your tractor to school with a straight pipe? I probably aint supposed to contribute, but I'm proud of you. Don't tell anyone I said that though. Grin and chuckle.



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Codie

04-04-2008 18:40:47




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 Re: How to make old gas tractors run well in reply to Mark - IN., 04-04-2008 18:04:24  
Thank you!



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rexhellwig

04-04-2008 17:53:48




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 Re: How to make old gas tractors run well in reply to Codie, 04-04-2008 12:12:43  
Something I always wanted to try...{but the restoration puritans would have a cow}.. would be a vacuume advance distributer. It would have to be custom built and tuned. It would take some tinkering, but not impossible.



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Bob Huntress

04-04-2008 15:51:22




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 Re: How to make old gas tractors run well in reply to Codie, 04-04-2008 12:12:43  
Most of the basic causes have been mentioned, such as carb setting air filter, sparkplug heat range etc. If you are still having this problem, you could try simply working the engine to a hotter temp. Other less common causes for carbon fouling include exhaust back pressure, and fuel quality. Have you noticed much water, or solid non combustibles? I noticed the a couple others mentioned fuel. Basically anything that will prevent the combustion chamber from reaching a tempeture that will completely burn the fuel/air mixture will result in a carbon residual. The hotter you maintain the inside of the cylinder, the less carbon will remain unburnt.

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buickanddeere

04-04-2008 15:44:27




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 Re: How to make old gas tractors run well in reply to Codie, 04-04-2008 12:12:43  
195F coolant temps. Which size plug threads and length? There maybe a platinum top plug that would fit? Toss the reistor wires and plugs and install solid wires.



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showcrop

04-04-2008 14:46:48




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 Re: How to make old gas tractors run well in reply to Codie, 04-04-2008 12:12:43  
Hi I don't think I would want to run Hi-test if I were fouling plugs. It slows down your burn to prevent preignition, you want full fire burn.



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the tractor vet

04-04-2008 15:46:50




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 Re: How to make old gas tractors run well in reply to showcrop, 04-04-2008 14:46:48  
Yes it is a slower burn BUT IT BURNS LONGER And no fouling of plugs and if you would listen to what i tell ya then you would learn something . As said before the tractors of the early 60's thru the mid seventys were made to run the GAS OF THE DAY and that gas was of 95 octain for reg not the 87 of today as this 87 gas is a flash burn and leaves carbon deposits on plugs Like i said try what i am and have been telling ya what are ya out. I fought this problem with a lot of local tractors that are still doing today that they did when they were new , working for a living . I fought this on one buddys tractor somany times i got tired of running over to his place to put plugs in . What i did was took the tractor down to the local gas station and filed on my dollar with the 93 hightest and told him to run it and when it needed gas to go back down and fill it and put it on my bill , if that did not make the tractor run any better he owed me nothing if the tractor went one week with out eating even the motorcraft that i had installed then he owed me the gas bill and the parts plus service call. Since then once a year i still go to his farm and tune up his 460 with one new set of motor crafts and I H points and cond. and that tractor runs everyday on the mixer wagon. So again don't knock it till ya try it along with a good major tune up . Remember i did this for a living . and i know what i am talken about.

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Mark - IN.

04-04-2008 18:41:52




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 Re: How to make old gas tractors run well in reply to the tractor vet, 04-04-2008 15:46:50  
Higher octain versus lower octain. I'll keep that in mind, as my tractors are diesel except the ol' AC-B that I mow around the house with, and the plugs do get sutted up. Hmm. Maybe I oughta try higer grade than regular 87 octane. I do know this...in the company truck, I always used to run premium until I got into trouble with the accountants whom said I was wasting company money, but I always noticed and maintained went further on a tank of gas which offset the cost...I figured. And I do have a Dodge Garage tuned up beater '94 V6 Dodge pickup that just flat out runs like garbage on regular, but runs a world of different on the higher octane premium. Got me, but premium(er) gas it will be in my gas.

I'm going to give premium a try in the ol' B. She's a dang good little tractor. "Ol' Reliable" I call her, and have used her to pull start a couple of much much larger diesels a couple of times when the batteries were too low to turn them over good enough on some real cold days. Was like a chihuaua leading groggy labradors around by a leash until they woke up. 6VDC and all, she sure is "Ol' Reliable". Thanks Vet.

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Mike M

04-04-2008 16:22:49




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 Re: How to make old gas tractors run well in reply to the tractor vet, 04-04-2008 15:46:50  
I agree with what you have said here , but I have ran the cheap 87 octane gas in our tractors without problems ? Proper tune up and adjustments seems the most important to me too. I have had some engines that weren't in tip top condition internal as they burned some oil and had some blue smoke and blow-by still run fine and not foul out plugs. These are/were John Deere's I don't know why that would matter though ? from most 2cyl. models to a 4020 gas to lawn mowers

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730 virgil

04-04-2008 14:05:44




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 Re: How to make old gas tractors run well in reply to Codie, 04-04-2008 12:12:43  
old mentioned air cleaner make sure the mesh is open. when i worked for a dealer we got a ihc 560 diesel in that was so plugged mesh was like mud. we ended up taking air cleaner off of tractor soaking it in bottom of parts cleaner tank for a couple of days. i think we ended throwing it away and getting different one. i've heard mud wasps plugging them up too.



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Bob

04-04-2008 13:52:21




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 Re: How to make old gas tractors run well in reply to Codie, 04-04-2008 12:12:43  
Warm it up and WORK it!



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Paul from MN

04-04-2008 13:19:52




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 Re: How to make old gas tractors run well in reply to Codie, 04-04-2008 12:12:43  
Get hotter plugs. The plugs speced in the manual are for a working tractor. Unless you are working it hard, the engine is to cool and the plugs foul.

Go up a heat range or two.



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36 coupes

04-04-2008 14:36:55




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 Re: How to make old gas tractors run well in reply to Paul from MN, 04-04-2008 13:19:52  
Ford tractors need H11 or H12 now.When I bought my 600 it had new H10s,Had a lot of trouble with gas fouling.Put in Autolite 216s , trouble stopped.Autolite 437s are eq to h12s.All tractors should go up one heat range with the gas we have now.If you ignore this you will have gas fouling.Another bad problem with Champion plugs is that the shells are made of a poor steel that will break off when you remove plugs.This happened when production was moved to Mexico.I have had this happen to an Olds V8.Do not ask for AL 437 plugs .The kid with the computer wont be able to find them,just say Autolite 437.

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the tractor vet

04-04-2008 12:48:49




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 Re: How to make old gas tractors run well in reply to Codie, 04-04-2008 12:12:43  
How to make and old gas tractor from back in the day when ya got real gas , Well i'll probably cautch some flack here but i am going to tell the way it is plain and simple as i have far more knolage on this and worked on far move tractors for a living them many on here . First off I do run the autolite or motor craft plugs myself i do not care much for the after market electronic stuff Give me and old fashioned set of points anyday. First ya need to change your gas as the tractors from back in that time frame ran on a higher octain then your feeding it today reg leaded gas at the pumps was 95 octain and some of the socalled farm gas was 92-93 so step up to the 93 and try it for awhile . Make sure that the ing. timing is set at factory spec.'s and make sure that the advance is working in the dist correctly and for this ya need to find and old COOT like me that knows how to work on dist. and has a dist strobe . Then ya really need to lean how to set the carb both at curb ideal and at full load . Make sure that the thermostat is working and you have proper air flow thru the rad and also coming thru the air filter . Make sure that you have no manifold leaks valve adjustments are dead on . Now i know that since this is and old tractor there is ware on the cam and she my not be 100% up to snuff . but worry about that when ya get the idea that you are going to do a major overhaul then that is when ya send the cam out and have it rebuilt. My buddys and i run gas tractors and we have no problems with ours as long as we run the proper fuel . Yes i know that i am a I H man buut it hold true on the Olivers as i have been knowen to work on them But by no means do i consider myself the GURU on the olivers. . One note here when checking the ing. timing check it at the slowest ideal that you can keep the tractor running then check the advance at full throttle and see how much advance you have and check what the book calls for as i do not have my Oliver stuff here at the house. Ya got nothing to lose but a couple tanks of hightest and it's only money.

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Steven f/AZ

04-04-2008 12:44:58




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 Re: How to make old gas tractors run well in reply to Codie, 04-04-2008 12:12:43  
I quit buying Champion plugs several years back and haven't had to replace many spark plugs since then... If you are constantly fouling, get a higher heat range.



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old

04-04-2008 12:39:27




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 Re: How to make old gas tractors run well in reply to Codie, 04-04-2008 12:12:43  
Have you checked and or cleaned the air filter. You might find its clogged up bad and if so it would run rich even with the carb set real lean



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Karl in MD

04-04-2008 12:21:19




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 Re: How to make old gas tractors run well in reply to Codie, 04-04-2008 12:12:43  
What kind of plugs are you running? If you"re running Champions, change "em out for Autolites, 386s I think. They made all the difference in the world in my 1550. I tried everything, and the Champions would still foul out.



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RustyFarmall

04-04-2008 12:45:45




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 Re: How to make old gas tractors run well in reply to Karl in MD, 04-04-2008 12:21:19  
388s are even hotter.



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Codie

04-04-2008 12:24:28




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 Re: How to make old gas tractors run well in reply to Karl in MD, 04-04-2008 12:21:19  
I threw away all of my champion plugs two years ago. I run NGK, Autolite, and Delco. All seem to perform the same.



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rrlund

04-04-2008 12:28:30




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 Re: How to make old gas tractors run well in reply to Codie, 04-04-2008 12:24:28  
It's not really the RIGHT way to do it,but I got some things from CarQuest for my 1600. They are an extension that screws in to the sparkplug hole and gets the plug out about an inch. It has a small hole in the end that goes in the head so it acts as kind of a precombustion chamber.



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Don-Wi

04-04-2008 14:55:27




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 Re: How to make old gas tractors run well in reply to rrlund, 04-04-2008 12:28:30  
I put a set of them on the 1600 before I rebuilt it and they helped a little, but the pluge would still foul out sooner than they should.

Once I ripped it apart I found 2 burnt valves...

Donovan from Wisconsin



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Codie

04-04-2008 13:53:46




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 Re: How to make old gas tractors run well in reply to rrlund, 04-04-2008 12:28:30  
I just bought some non-foulers last week. I have not even but an hour on them but so far I am not real impressed.



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Mike M

04-04-2008 16:13:58




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 Re: How to make old gas tractors run well in reply to Codie, 04-04-2008 13:53:46  
You are not to put non-foulers on all the cylinders per the instructions with them. I did all cylinders on an old Scout with a 258 six and then I could not even get it started.



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super99

04-04-2008 14:19:47




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 Re: How to make old gas tractors run well in reply to Codie, 04-04-2008 13:53:46  
IH 400 gas W/loader. Spark plugs would foul within an hour, adjusted carb, no change. Put 4 non foulers in it and has run for a year with no problem. My 2 cents worth. Chris



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rrlund

04-04-2008 16:26:02




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 Re: How to make old gas tractors run well in reply to super99, 04-04-2008 14:19:47  
I've had mine in there for 6 years now with the same set of plugs. Run the tractor everyday to feed cattle. Maybe it makes a difference what the problem is to begin with?



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