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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

roosa master

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sherburne

03-23-2008 08:35:08




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One of my John Deeres has a jdb331al2405 injection pump. Anyone know where to get a schematic of it?
I'm rebuilding it and have a Spaco kit 24371. The power piston in the cam advance has a steel piston ring. It broke in dissassembly. The kit has a similar dimension part made of rubber or something(flexible). Have they replaced steel with this?




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jdemaris

03-23-2008 09:36:19




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 Re: roosa master in reply to sherburne, 03-23-2008 08:35:08  
The ring is not replaced with rubber unless that was done very recently. The part from Stanadyne is still iron. It is basically, just a small iron piston ring and does not come with the kit since it normally is never replaced. I've never had any trouble installing one - but it has to be compressed properly. I don't see any reason why a soft teflon or rubber ring would't work - if it fits right, though. There are always a few extra seals left over from any of these kits - Stanadyne or Spaco - so I can't say I ever had reason to notice if any of the extras fit that piston-groove, or not.
Numbers for that ring or seal are:
Stanadyne is 29281 or 18967
Spaco is 09335 or 07042

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The part that Goose mentioned is something totally different. The plastic ring that was used to hold the governor-weight holder to the drive-plate was totally eliminated in 1985 in all pickup trucks. It was replaced with the EID setup. The EID can be retrofitted to all the DB or JDB pumps. The 6.2/6.5 GM diesels, and 6.9/7.3 Ford-IH diesels, used DB2 pumps.

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sherburne

03-23-2008 14:53:38




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 Re: roosa master in reply to jdemaris, 03-23-2008 09:36:19  
I looked those part numbers up, and one is for a ring and one is for a viton ring.
Any trick to getting the cam advance screw out? I've supported it qnd even gave the wrench a good rap with a hammer. No luck. Reverse thread? Penetrating oil? Heat?
Thanks for the help. I, also, was impressed by your parts layout



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jdemaris

03-23-2008 18:48:18




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 Re: roosa master in reply to sherburne, 03-23-2008 14:53:38  
To remove, just as MSB said. You have to give it a good wack while trying to turn/loosen - all at the same time. If you don't, you'll crack the head-screw. When you get used to it - like doing a couple of pumps a day - you can almost do it blind-folded.

I assume you've got the proper toothed Bristol wrench? Stanadyne also sells a guide for it to fit into - but it's causes more harm than good - and you're better off not using it.

In regard to the newer "all metal" retainer that MSB and Goose mentioned - I'm a little lost on that one. The plastic-dampened ring that Deere has in the DB and JDB pumps was an option that just about everyone used. But, even back in the 1950s there was also an all steel plate available - but it was rarely used since it did not absorb vibration. In 1985 a new type of a dampened retainer came out - called the EID - which stands for Elastomer Insert Drive. That is what was used on all the GM 6.2s and 6.5s as well as all the Ford 6.9s and 7.3s after mid-1985. It still has plastic parts - but they are encased by metal instead of being held on by rivets. This EID retainer is an update for the Deere pumps like your's if you want to spend an extra $30.
If not, the older style plastic ring will last you 10 or 15 years which may not be all that bad.

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msb

03-23-2008 17:32:36




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 Re: roosa master in reply to sherburne, 03-23-2008 14:53:38  
The plastic cast ring was still included in the last kit I bought from an authorized Roosa Master Repair shop. I would not use it ,however. I now replace them all with the later all steel weight retainer.Its a forever fix. The cam screw has right handed threads. I have removed hundreds of them by firmly placing the splined wrench in the screw and then giving the wrench a good rap with a medium size hammer. I have had a few screws split out in the past.Most of them were before I started using the hammer on them. They are pretty brittle. In that case, I used a hacksaw and cut the housing to allow further disassembly. I suppose if you were good enough, you could weld something to the broken screw without cutting the housing away. I was never that good of a welder. Once I cut the timing advance casting away, I would use a pair of ViceGrips to remove the broken bolt.

Nice pictures, John.

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guido

03-23-2008 13:27:35




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 Re: roosa master in reply to jdemaris, 03-23-2008 09:36:19  
Hello Jdmares
Nice pictures, but..... ..... ..... can you put it back to-gather? Just kidding!
I wish my students kept the parts to-gather like that. I would lose one pump per term, and usually would have to reassemble 1/2 of them for the next class.
Guido.



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Goose

03-23-2008 09:06:46




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 Re: roosa master in reply to sherburne, 03-23-2008 08:35:08  
Do you know any history of the pump? It might be the other way around.

Roosamaster pumps that GM used on the 5.7 and 6.2 diesels originally had a plastic ring that didn't last so it was replaced with a steel ring. I have no way of knowing if this was the same ring you're talking about. I took a class once on rebuilding Roosamaster pumps, but it's been too many years ago and not enough use of the info.

If you have a community college with a diesel department nearby, they would be a good source of info.

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jdemaris

03-23-2008 18:37:41




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 College and history? in reply to Goose, 03-23-2008 09:06:46  
A community or tech college would be one of the last places I'd rely on for accurate information.
I worked for years with my hands - and later spent years going nights to college. Thanks heavens I had real hands-on experience first - since much of what was taught in college was outdated or wrong to start with. My best friend had his Masters Electrician's License for 15 years - and then went to school to get an electrical engineering degree. He told me that it dumbed him down - and he had a hard time since it required him to "unlearn" many things he already knew to be true for many years working in the real world. Not all college or tech school is bad - but a lot of it is. All depends on the professor you happen to get.

In regard to history on the Roosamaster pump? Yeah, I know it well. The rotary pump we're discussing here was invented by Vernon Roosa in 1941. His concept was put into production by Hartford Machine Screw Company in Connecticutt and they got their first contract to sell in 1952. Ford was almost their first customer but backed out. So, Hercules became the first. John Deere followed in 1960. The Hartford Co. later changed its name to Stanadyne and also sells Moen water faucets - and makes roller lifters for GM and Ford-IH diesels. When Vernon Roosa first tried to market his pump - American Bosch was trying to sell their rotary pump also. After Vernon Roosa's pump got popular, CAV and Bosch purchased permission to copy the design and produce their own rotary pumps anywhere but in the USA. Now - about the plastic ring you mention - it was NEVER replaced with a steel ring. The earlier DB and JDB pumps Deere used, as well as DBs on Case, Ford, AC, IH, etc. had a plastic weight retainer-dampener ring. The DB2 pumps used in Olds 5.7 diesels, GM 6.2 diesels - and Ford-IH 6.9 and 7.3 diesels also used the same plastic dampener until model year 1985. Then it was eliminated but NEVER with a steel ring. It was replaced with a EID - which stands for elastomer insert drive. Deere also started to use it. It still uses plastic - but the plastic pieces are inserted in a recess surrounded by steel - instead of being held by rivets - that's all.
The older DB and JDB pumps can all use the same EID rings as the post-1985 DB2 pumps have.

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