When is enough going to be enough?

You must be assuming that the demand for gas on a worldwide basis has remained the same.

What do you think happens to a commodity that has an ever increasing demand but a decreasing availability?

I also could of bought a brand new Renault of Volkswagen car for under $1000 - or a new Corvette for $5000.

I like cheap gas - but the reality is - it just leads to spoiled people and extreme waste.

Same with household heating. Right now, it's 11 below zero F outside (real temp, not wind-chill). Many people are heating with oil at over $3 per gallon - and yet, many new houses are being built with the same heating systems. Those people will later whine about the cost of heating - instead of building with an alternative source.

My point about the 10% profit-margin for Exxon - is how often people don't understand what they read and then spout off about it - like a few people on this forum misquoting the Wall Street Journal. Politicians rely on this sort of thing. They create "bad guys" in the public eye and avert attention from the real issues. There are many US companies with much higher profit margins than EXXON.

If someone has an argument - argue the genuine facts and not misleading headlines and/or soundbites.

I lived seven miles from New York City in the 60s, in a vegetable farming area on the other side of the George Washington Bridge. Far enough away not to smell the city or the Hudson River, but close enough to have all kinds of cheap little foreign cars shipped in and sold cheap.
People would buy them new as oddities, and sell them for $50 a few years later. I bought many, just to take apart and learn mechanics - or to drive in the woods and beat to death. There were many that sold new for under $1000 - including two-stroke 360 Subarus, DAFs, Borgwards, Lloyds, etc.

My father bought a brand new 1959 Volkswagen in 1960 and paid $983 for it. I still have the records. It was impressive since it actually had a gas gauge - wherease our 1949 Volkswagen did not. The 49 came with a little reserve tank like a motorcycle. Same year, I went with my dad to buy a left-over, brand new 1959 Ford 2 door "business coupe" with the 223 "Mileagemaker six", vacuum powered windwhield wipers, three-speed stick on the column, and power-nothing. That was 1960 and he paid the dealer $1650 cash for it - brand new. List price had been $2,103. It was built just a few miles from our home at the New Jersey Mahwah Ford plant - that is long gone now.

Our neighbor, sometime around 1961 bought two brand new "foreign" cars. One a German DKW with a two-stroke engine that he paid around $900 for, and also an Isetta BMW for around $800. The Isetta looked like a three wheeler, but it actually had four. Dealer list price on the Isseta
in 1961 was $1,063, it was supposed to be capable of 63 MPG, and a top speed of 53 MPH.

My first wife bought a brand new Renault for something like an advertised price of $999, and that was in 1965. It had a rear-engine, but not sure of the model - but I think it was a Dauphine.
She also bought a brand new Subaru 360 in 1969 for $1099.

Yeah, I'm well acquainted with the King Midgets, Crosleys, etc. but that is not what I am talking about.

Also, just for perspective - in 1960, dealer list price on a new Corvette was $3,872. Fuel injection for the 283 engine was $484 extra if you needed more power.

Is Canada considered the land of plenty, eh?

As it is, the only fuel station near me quit selling off road diesel, and I don't get it. Business was always good, diesel always turned over quick.

Exxon/Mobile is more then just an oil company, they own or own shares of textile plants, plastic manufacturing companys, chemical companys, many other company's and around the world etc. They are a very diverse company. There profit is the total income from all of there assests. Not just the fuel they sell.

You say . . .

"The fat cat money people are always on top and the average person is always on the bottom ! "

That depends on your perpective. What you are calling the "bottom" is probably a person that drives cars, lives in a heated home, eats very well, raises children in a safe place, etc. That lifestyle is considered "high living in some other parts of the world.

You also say . . .

"The control has been taken away from the average person and if your not in control, guess what? ( Your out of control! ) "

I don't think that is quite true. The average person never had power to start with - and that's a good thing. Do you really want "average" people in charge? And, lack of control that you never had anyway - is a lot different than having that power and using it with no restraints.

One more thing - you stated:

"Just wondering if maybe this is how it was in history about the time of the big tea party ?"

The Tea Party was a protest by people that didn't like their across-the-sea government telling them what to do anymore. When it finally became a full revolt - that battle was done by a very small percentage of the people - and certainly not the "average" ones. A few extraordinary people and their actions resulted in our country being created via the Articles of Confederation. We again need a few extraordinary people to provide leadership so well meaning average and above-average people can follow. Whether it can be done with today's method of elections, I don't know. In fact, even if we got a really good president - he probably would lack the power to really turn things around.

I don't see it as a supernatural event - more as incredible luck. It happens sometimes.
George Washington was regarded as an idiot early on, but later became a hero once the war was won.

The truth is - many of our founding fathers were, at the time, traitors to their own government. Had they lost, history would of been recorded quite differently. Don't get me wrong - I probably would of sided with the rebellion - but not sure if I would of had the guts and been willing to risk the lives of my family to join a war that seemed impossible to win. That took guts.

Also - you mention my "foreign policy?"

Did I mention anything about it?

You are ranting and raving and using nonsense and emotion as your core argument. If you feel you've got a legitimate argument, then use legitimate facts.

If you have some issue with something I actually said - and not something you dreamed up or just, sort of "feel" - I'm listening.

By tomorrow when his welfare check shows up he should be okay for awhile.

What have you done, one your own, as a work-around for these issues?

I've done plenty - I'll give you a list if desired. Will they work? I don't know. Can I prepare for everything? No, I cannot - but I certainly try all on my own.

If you have done nothing, on your own, to look ahead, prepare, cut down your energy use, etc. - you've got little ground to argue on.

If you've looked ahead, have no car payments, have no mortgage, have zero credit-card debt, have food stored, etc. - you're probably doing okay. Paying a lot of health insurance, taxes, and fuel - yes. But, that is inevitable.

I'm not trying to be mean-spirited here - and it seems you're having a bad day - but it's your type of narrow reasoning that corrupt politicians rely on. John Adams and Ben Franklin - back in the 1700s were correct. The average person should not be allowed to vote unless they prove their competency. They also agreed that all true democracies fail fast - because too many people want different things, and few have foresight.
That is why - at least so far - we are a republic, not a democracy. One we become a full socialized democracy - this country will fail.

I also saw an article about how the Ohio government wants to start regulating all these outside wood burners. The Ohio EPA is getting involved. Stack height,fuel type,no cardboards or wastes, no coal ! all kinda regulations. So much for a cheap alternative heater.

When faced with facts that repudiate your ignorant ramblings you switch to calling me a draft "dogger".

Is General Tommy Franks correct or are you?

One of you is lying.

But you avoided the question.

General Tommy Franks told a completely different story than you did.

Who is lying?

Do you have any other lies you would like to spread?

Stop spreading your lies. You look like a fool.

Actually I work 70 hours per week and employ six others. You can thank me for paying a ton of money in taxes so you can dangle from the government titt long after you are gone.

Don't ever talk shitt to those of us that pay your way.

Do you think you are fooling anyone?

Read a book called Inside CentComm by Lt. General Mike DeLong if you want to find out the truth.

Or else you could continue to spread your lies.
My guess is that you will continue to spread your stories.

Excuse me, but what party has been in charge for the last seven years? And what has happened to the national debt during those seven years?

• The Truth Is Out There

I was drafted in 70, and morale was very low then simply because everybody knew by that time that the Viet Nam was a waste of time. At that time, low morale - from my perspective, had nothing to do with any one president.

When Jimmy Carter took office, he let the military fall to pieces with sheer neglect. He acted as if having a strong military was a luxury and not a necessity.

Reagan did a lot that raised morale in the military and also in the civilian population. If he did make back-door deals to get things done - all I can say is "good." I wish Bush would make some now.

I will add though, that rewriting history proves nothing.

===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== ===== =

An unemployed governor from California did something that the president of the US couldn't do. Carter wasn't failure?

There are many businesses in the United States with a larger profit-margin than the oil companies.

Now that demand has caused the price to rise, of course anyone that holds rights to reserves will be making good money.

Just like any farmer that has wheat or corn in storage to sell today will make good money.

That's the law of supply and demand and the marketplace forces at work.

I used to live next door to the family that kept the Griggs oil field in production years ago. When oil was cheap and the industry was close to busted - those poor kids ran around in tattered clothes and I saw one of them with no shoes and snow on the ground. They lived in a trailer house on the oil field that was barely fit to live in...

No different than the boom and bust in the railroads, farming, gold mines, timber, Chinese spice trade, etc, etc, that has happened for all of history...

Except this time - if we really are running out of oil, it may permanently put an end to everyone and their dog having his and hers Suburans, Excursions, Expeditions, plus matching ATV's and snowmobiles or whatever...

That's probably about how the whalers felt when they realized that career path was going down the drain... I guess the world adapted that time, too...

Howard

Last year - Exxon 1st quarter - they got 9.4 cents profit from every dollar of sales.

Same quarter - Microsoft got 27.3 cents from every dollar of sales.

McDonalds hamburgers got 12.3 cents from every dollar.

General Electric kept 11.4 cents from every dollar.

Last year, profit margins for the following:

Disney Corp - 8.9 %
Mcdonalds - 12 %
Pfizer - 23.5%
Amgen - 29.8%
Microsoft - 31.6%
Occidental Petroleum - 29.6 %
3M - 16.9%
Wells Fargo - 20.4%
Exxon - 9.4 %

And what is the profit margin of a state or federal government taxing fuel that it has a zero investment in? Probably the highest of all.

For instance:

People are now being paid record amounts from Social Secruity.

The average wage of an hourly employee is at record highs.

Gas is at record high price.

Cars are at record high prices.

Tax payments are at record high amounts in all tax brckets.

Schools are being funded at record high levels.

Putting it in big black lettering at the top of a newspaper seems to make it more shocking.

Can someone explain to me what talent a CEO can have, ( other than bribing congressmen ) that makes him worth $400 million per year.

As spoken by a man that knows his own worth.

Are you saying that . . . since you need something - it's your right to have it cheaper than most of the rest of the planet?

Hey, it's 32 cents a gallon right now in Iraq - cheapest in the world. But, I think there's a down-side to living there.

Source?

Is this the same Wall Street Journal you are citing?

The only rational thing to do would be to use less. Plan ahead on errands. Drive a smaller vehicle. Car pool. Don't use air conditioning in summer. Don't heat your house above 60F in winter. Not everyone can take advantage of all the savings, but everyone can do something.

The irrational thing to do is invade another oil producing country. Or make the government subsidize the oil we are already buying.

My only issue is this. The varioius governments get a lot of tax money on the fuel - and squander it. If it was going to good use, I wouldn't complain. They give much away to help people buy fuel - which is an incentive NOT to do anything.
Many of the same people that say they need help - go off and buy/finance $50,000 trucks and $10,000 snowmobiles.

We need a long range plan - and I've seen none.
A huge chunk of that plan would be using less fuel - not finding more fuel. If the majority of indviduals were truly concerned - why are there so many people driving huge SUVs and trucks - that only use them for commuting?

I agree with you on this point, I see a lot of "wasted" trips here, there, eveywhere. I bought a truck when prices of fuel were not bad prices. Now I am stuck with it, I cannot afford to buy a another vehicle and pay insurance on both. I still need my truck to pull trailers for work. But the people who whine most are the people who makes 5 trips to town on the weekends instead of getting what the need on the way home from work, they have to grocery shop, go to the mall, then go out to eat, the go out for entertainment. The local Walmart's parking lot is FULL on any given weeknd. If people were conerned about the price of fuel, the parking lots would be empty, they would stay home, learn how to entertain themselves.
Jim

And, it's not just the USA anymore. China is going to be in deep trouble soon. They are in sort of an industrial revolution, like we were 100 years ago. But - they don't have the almost endless resources to exploit - like we did. So, they are buying them. What will happen in the future when China decides it must have more space and resources? Well, if they have a high-tech military - I think we'll be in big trouble.

Collectively speaking, we are spoiled in the U.S. (including me) and have done very little to plan ahead. You'd have to have your head in the sand to not see this coming long ago.

In 1918 the per-gallon price was $3.22 and in 1922 the price was $2.90 - when adjusted to today's dollar.

In 1981, average price of gas was $3.81 when adjusted to today's dollar.

• Link

So now its the oil company's fault it gets hot in the summer in Kansas City? Are they going to sue the consumer for buying fuel when these freezing temps drive the temp of fuel below 60 degrees?

What exactly do you mean?

I could say - tough! - We are already paying about twice what you are, so feel a bit better now?

RAB

I just find it irresponsible in my area anyways that we are still installing oil furnaces. We are a province full of trees and we can't get a good wood chip burner or pellet furnace incentive going? The gov't will pay me almost 2000$ to convert to natural gas, or a heat pump but won't give a cent to upgrade to a pellet appliance or wood fired applicance. They could create local jobs, drive demand for wood fiber that has crashed due to the high cdn $ etc.