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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

E-85 in a Stock M

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Madbohemy

01-16-2008 09:30:44




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E-85 is available at my local CO-OP for about 40 cents less than regular gas. Being of the cheap nature I would like to know if I can burn E-85 and not roast my engine . I already know that I need to open the needle to achieve the same output, but I am afraid of burning valves or scoring pistons because of excess heat. The gas man assured me this would happen, but he also sells the higher priced regular fuel. Any comments would be appreciated. Thank you.

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ChadS

01-17-2008 11:43:12




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 Re: E-85 in a Stock M in reply to ChrisB, 01-16-2008 09:30:44  

Leland said: (quoted from post at 10:15:32 01/17/08) gas is still a better value for the buck ,you will burn much more E85 than gas .my S-10 loses about 30% on mpg's using that poor excuse for fuel I get 25 gas and 14-15 using E85


What year S-10? I run a 95 Bonneville at 50/50, seems OK and not much of a milage drop at that rate. Same for a 96 Dodge ram 2500 5.7 V8, that truck loves that stuff! Chad

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Leland

01-17-2008 09:15:32




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 Re: E-85 in a Stock M in reply to Madbohemy, 01-16-2008 09:30:44  
gas is still a better value for the buck ,you will burn much more E85 than gas .my S-10 loses about 30% on mpg's using that poor excuse for fuel I get 25 gas and 14-15 using E85



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ChadS

01-17-2008 08:17:23




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 Re: E-85 in a Stock M in reply to Lanse, 01-16-2008 09:30:44  

onefarmer said: (quoted from post at 08:42:01 01/17/08) I don't know. Never had it ice up with gas. I think the e85 has a differant vaporization point cooling the intake charge more, causing more icing. This was in 90* weather


The E85 will drop incoming air temp thru the manifold up to an extra 15 degrees over gasoline at a 50/50 mix with 87 octane, will also raise the octane of the pump gas, and at the same time dillute the octane rating of the E85,, making it easier to burn. On most Ive converted over, the stock air cleaner is still intact. The line comming out the back of the head,,, that hooks up into the breather,, eventually, engine temps rise and this air becomes warmer and help warm up the incoming air tempurature. They still Iced up a little when they first start up,,, My M is bad about it but once its warmed up, cant ask for a better running M!! If the carb is right,, the mix is right,, they run good, if not better. Never had carb trouble out of properly maintained book spec storage proceedure was followed. Even with the rubber tipped needle valves. Most eninges need to retard the timing to help,, a few degrees, depending on your tractor,,, Throw book spec timing specs out the window,,, well, not out the window, just close the book and set it in a safe place,,, LOL! ChadS [email protected]

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Mathias NY

01-16-2008 19:22:00




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 Re: E-85 in a Stock M in reply to Madbohemy, 01-16-2008 09:30:44  
Just a thought here. Many vintage tractors were designed as all-fuel, meaning they were designed for lower octane fuels like distilate and kerosene. Granted E85 has a high alcohol content which is not exactly the same, but it does sound like those fuels have a lot in common. Things like lower power output per gallon and the need to have a warmer carburator. Many of these tractors had deflectors to warm the carburators with heat from the exhaust. For these reasons an all-fuel tractor might be better suited for running E85. The lower compression may be a benefit here too, since the higher alcohol content may give E85 a lower octane rating (more likely to detonate under compression) than gasoline. But like I said, this is just a thought...

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Bob

01-16-2008 19:30:52




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 Mathias... in reply to Mathias NY, 01-16-2008 19:22:00  
You got the whole E-85 octane thing BACKWARDS.

Here's a quote from the Iowa Ag Dept's site:


"What is the octane rating of E85 compared to gasoline?" "Regular unleaded gasoline has an octane rating of 87; E85 has an octane rating ranging from 100-105 making it a high performance fuel."

The hotlink below is to the Iowa Ag Dept's site. Also, see WIKI...

Link



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Mathias NY

01-17-2008 04:41:16




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 Re: Mathias... in reply to Bob, 01-16-2008 19:30:52  
That makes sense, I know racing fuel is higher octane and that is also closer to alcohol. I guess the part that confuses me is that it delivers less power than a comperable amount of gasoline, hense the increased fuel consumption.

To my knowledge these has not been any argument that E85 should replace racing fuel. Inspite of being considered a 'high-performance' fuel based on octane rating, E85's performance is actually more comparable to a much lower grade gasoline, perhaps an 80 octane. If someone were to run racing fuel in their tractor or car, I don't believe they would find a signficant change in fuel consumption.

My reference to the use of kerosene and distilate fuels was from the understanding that those fuels also had a higher rate of consumption than gasoline for the same power output.

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onefarmer

01-16-2008 15:09:21




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 Re: E-85 in a Stock M in reply to Madbohemy, 01-16-2008 09:30:44  
I ran E85 all last summer. It ran pretty good, but the carb did ice up quite a bit. I didn"t work it any just picking up hay. It did stumble some as the throttle was opened. Use maybe twice as much as gas.



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gene bender

01-17-2008 05:30:09




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 Re: E-85 in a Stock M in reply to onefarmer, 01-16-2008 15:09:21  
The fuel has nothing to do with the carb icingup but the temp and humidity sure do.



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onefarmer

01-17-2008 07:42:01




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 Re: E-85 in a Stock M in reply to gene bender, 01-17-2008 05:30:09  
I don't know. Never had it ice up with gas. I think the e85 has a differant vaporization point cooling the intake charge more, causing more icing. This was in 90* weather



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onefarmer

01-16-2008 15:32:04




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 Re: E-85 in a Stock M in reply to onefarmer, 01-16-2008 15:09:21  
Forgot to add it was a Farmall M



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RayP(MI)

01-16-2008 13:09:10




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 Re: E-85 in a Stock M in reply to Madbohemy, 01-16-2008 09:30:44  
I tried E85 in my Chevy Blazer a while back. Ran and started OK. Fuel economy dropped by a third. Check engine lights abounded. Reset several times. (Apparently oxygen sensors weren"t happy.) Fuel guage started working again! (Unfortunately, quit again after a few tanks of gasoline.) No apparent damage to engine or fuel system. Engine is rated for E10, so apparently no alcohol sensitive components.

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MSD

01-16-2008 11:58:42




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 Re: E-85 in a Stock M in reply to Madbohemy, 01-16-2008 09:30:44  
I tried E-85 in my JD BO last summer. It started harder, liked to really pop and backfire but once it ran it ran just as good as when on regular. The engine didn't burn up, the carb still works just fine, no burnt valves. Seems like a lot of miss information about ethanol out there.



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ChadS

01-16-2008 11:27:22




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 Re: E-85 in a Stock M in reply to Madbohemy, 01-16-2008 09:30:44  
If the M has over 150 psi of cyl pressure, you can run it at a mixed rate of 75%gasoline, and 25% E85. Will be stronger and not suffer the harder cold startups as bad as if you were to run it straight. Ive ran ethanol for years and years, not one time, did it ever ruin a part on the IH tractor, provided you take the nessisary steps to convert it over. Nothing more than rejetting the carb, and retarding the timing a hair more than stock settings. I have sat down with over 50 of different IH tractors,probably 20 JD 2 cyls, and others,, and converted them over and developed a table of percentage of a mixture, based off the cyl pressure of the engine. Aint had no problems yet out of any of them. If anybody wants to see this mixing list, please email me at [email protected] for your application. ChadS

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Steven f/AZ

01-16-2008 10:48:56




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 Re: E-85 in a Stock M in reply to Madbohemy, 01-16-2008 09:30:44  
As already stated, the design of your tractor will not make the most of E85 - you need high compression and fuel system parts that do not break down in alcohol.

Run E10 with no modifications and no additives and call it good.



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Matt from CT

01-16-2008 10:43:38




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 Re: E-85 in a Stock M in reply to Madbohemy, 01-16-2008 09:30:44  
Deffering the mechanics to those who know better...

E-85 has 95,000 BTU / Gallon.
Standard gasoline has 125,000 BTU / Gallon.

So you need 31% more E85 to perform the same amount of work as Gasoline.

Turning the numbers around, E85 needs to sell for 76% of the price of a gallon of gasoline to break even. A $0.40 saving would break even at $1.66 gasoline.

At $3 gas and $2.60 ethanol, buy the gasoline, you'll save money. E85 only makes sense at that price if like organic food you're making the purchase for other intangible considerations.

(And I grow and buy a lot of organic food :) )

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Matt from CT

01-16-2008 10:52:59




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 Re: E-85 in a Stock M in reply to Matt from CT, 01-16-2008 10:43:38  
Playing with Maark's numbers from Green Magazine below...

5.2gph / 4.1gph = 1.268. 26.8% more fuel is close to my 31%

Given I said the break even point for a $0.40/gallon discount for E85 is against $1.66/gallon gasoline...

5.2gph x $1.26 = $6.55
4.1gph x $1.66 = $6.80

Looks like the theoretical calculations based on the BTUs match the experimental data close enough for government work :)

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RustyFarmall

01-16-2008 10:41:56




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 Re: E-85 in a Stock M in reply to Madbohemy, 01-16-2008 09:30:44  
Alcohol burns much cooler than gas. I highly doubt that you will do any damage to the engine. To realize the real benefits of E-85 though, you will need to not only increase the amount of fuel going in, but you also need to raise the compression ratio of the engine. E-85 has just now become available here, I will probably experiment with it a bit but not until warmer weather. I don't use my tractors enough in cold weather to be able to do a real test. I've been using the E-10 for better than 20 years now with absolutely NO problems.

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Maark

01-16-2008 10:11:04




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 Re: E-85 in a Stock M in reply to Madbohemy, 01-16-2008 09:30:44  
In the last issue of Green Magazine, A completely stock 1947 John Deere A was run on a Dyno with regular gas. The A had just short of 38 hp at 4.1gph. On E-85 it acheived 40hp at 5.2gph. Regular gas at 3.10 per gallon. E-85 is 2.50 per gallon. The tractor running on gas at 4 gallons per hour X 3.10=$12.40. The same tracor using 5.2 gallons per hour at $2.50=$12.50.



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dhermesc

01-16-2008 11:55:35




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 Re: E-85 in a Stock M in reply to Maark, 01-16-2008 10:11:04  
Do you have a link to that article?



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davpal

01-16-2008 09:52:28




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 Re: E-85 in a Stock M in reply to Madbohemy, 01-16-2008 09:30:44  
Don't even bother with it. It will be a disaster.Way too much alcohol for the M's engine. Probably would not be good on the carb either. Buy the lowest octane gas you can find and add a little valve additive to it and be happy. Now if you want to build a pulling tractor..... .....



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Larry in GA.

01-16-2008 09:49:23




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 Re: E-85 in a Stock M in reply to Madbohemy, 01-16-2008 09:30:44  
As Ray said you will have more problem with rust than heat. Everything I have seen say everything needs to be stainless. And no rubber because it will eats it. Larry



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Ray(MO)

01-16-2008 09:42:16




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 Re: E-85 in a Stock M in reply to Madbohemy, 01-16-2008 09:30:44  
Everything would need to be stainless steal and special valves and guides and more. They did a story about this on PBS about cars. Do not run any thru any motor not setup for E-85.



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CWL

01-16-2008 09:39:25




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 Re: E-85 in a Stock M in reply to Madbohemy, 01-16-2008 09:30:44  
From what I understand it takes a lot more alcohol that gas to get the same power output. By the time you use more fuel it may not be that much cheaper in the long run.



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paul

01-16-2008 09:35:32




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 Re: E-85 in a Stock M in reply to Madbohemy, 01-16-2008 09:30:44  
Seems alcohol burns cooler, not hotter? Donno about that....

Your problems will be: Low compression, ethanol has high octane so you will lose efficiency, old gas tractors have very low compression. Will go through more gallons.

Starting in cold weather, carb will ice up as they pull so much heat out of the air. The 15% gas should help you on this, but on pure ethanol, that was a problem, had to water-jacket the carb.

--->Paul

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