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geo-thermal heating

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TVB

01-12-2008 07:34:13

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Curious anyone out their have a geo-thermal heating unit in their home? I'm thinking about putting one in and was hoping for some honest feedback as to the costs, problems, likes, dislikes of the system. I'm considering a split unit that would go in the coil blank of my propane furnace. My house is 3000 s.f. and propane was only a 1.00 gallon when we build this house. G.T. unit will cost 15 grand +- to install but at 800$ a month for propane it might be cheaper in the long run. What do you think?

P.S. I'm not concerned about global warming just keeping my wallet thicker.

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Mathias NY

01-14-2008 05:20:29

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Re: geo-thermal heating in reply to higgins, 01-12-2008 07:34:13

Gun guru said: (quoted from post at 18:55:16 01/12/08) What does rice coal in pellet form run per ton? Where do you buy coal? I am now paying $200/ton (best price I know of) for hardwood pellets.

The price my coworks are paying $240/ton in 50 lb bags. There are places that sell it for less, but the quality may not be as good. Obviously the price goes down if you buy it in bulk. There are a handful of coal distributors around here. If you are in the Rochester, NY area I can see about getting their contact information for you.

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toolz

01-13-2008 16:53:35

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Re: geo-thermal heating in reply to TVB, 01-12-2008 07:34:13

I built my house (2500 sq ft) 11 years ago, installing a geo-thermal unit at that time. We chose a Bard unit with a Bard propane furnace for back-up, closed loop, with 750 feet of pipe field. Vertical loops were not common then. We avoided Waterfurnace because an electric back-up is too costly to run. My buddy, who owns an HVAC company, said the Bard compressor was nearly indestructable, and would pump mud if it had to. The only problem we had was in the first summer, when we had a freeze-up in the compressor unit, which stopped the water flow through the loop. The loop contractor had not put enough methanol in the mix. Since the two loop pumps are water cooled, they overheated, made a bunch of pressure in the loop, heated the piping near the pumps, and blew out the plastic pipes. Methanol/water mixture blew all over the utility room. The contractor fixed everything, and covered all the damage. It has been trouble free since, and has saved a ton of money on propane. My house is well insulated, and the system will keep us warm down to sub-zero temps. If it is very cold with high winds, the propane will kick on, but not often. Cooling is excellent. I would recommend this system to anyone, and will install the same setup if I build again.

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buickanddeere

01-13-2008 00:22:11

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Re: geo-thermal heating in reply to TVB, 01-12-2008 07:34:13

Depends..... .... If properly designed,using quality components that are correctly installed, wonderful. Or if installed by Bargain Bubba's Heating & Cooling/Custom Tillage/Custom Harvest/Tree Planting/Dog Training & Grooming Service & Marital Advice Services. A Geothermal unit will be a miserable money pit.

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No gloves!

01-12-2008 21:17:28

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Re: geo-thermal heating in reply to TVB, 01-12-2008 07:34:13

From what I hear it's a great way to cool/heat a shop. Just bury pipe in your cement slab and a bunch more deep underground around the yard and add a small pump to circulate the juice. In January when it's 0 degrees outside, the shop is 50. In July when it's 100 degrees outside, the shop is 50. What more could a guy want.

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john *.?-!.* cub owner

01-12-2008 19:15:13

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Re: geo-thermal heating in reply to TVB, 01-12-2008 07:34:13

I installed a 2 ton Water Furnace 18 years ago, which has done a good job, but last summer I started having problems with it, and it needs major repairs. That combined with the fact the loops were not installed properly I decided to replace it with a Hydro-Temp unit (also Geo thermal). It will be in service Monday afternoon. The big problem in this area was finding a dealer to install them. In my area (central MO. You figure one 250 foot loop, 6 feet deep per ton of cooling. further north, vertical loops (installed in wells) become a better choice due to deeper frost layer.

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ChrisB

01-12-2008 16:52:25

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Re: geo-thermal heating in reply to TVB, 01-12-2008 07:34:13

Hugh,

Down in Southern MA and near the big city I hear wood is going for $300 ~ $325 this year and they are out. I even hear stories about some new wood they call Naked Wood going for $400. They strip the bark for mulch.
Your story reminds me of a German farmer saying :

"Wood makes you three times warm"

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ChrisB

01-12-2008 16:46:48

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Re: geo-thermal heating in reply to TVB, 01-12-2008 07:34:13

dave guest said: All you conserve is followed by rate increases. You do want the utilities to make money don't you?

Is that not the same demise that killed electric heating in the 80s?

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Hugh MacKay

01-12-2008 16:43:01

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Re: geo-thermal heating in reply to TVB, 01-12-2008 07:34:13

TVB: If you want to read about a massive geo thermal system, check out Ropak Can-Am, Springhill, Nova Scotia. I know they have a web site, although I haven't looked at it in some time. Most of you probably know the name Ropak as a manufacturer of plastic vegetable containers, (farmer to retail) with factories in most vegetable growing areas across North America. Then of course Springhill is know for producing Anne Murray.

Springhill is a former coal mining town, mines closed in the 60s. Ropak started this for much of their heating needs, circulating water from the old mines to surface and back. Today their system heats most of the town, probably 6,000 pop. I know they also advertise this in attracting new businesses.

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dave guest

01-12-2008 16:13:40

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Re: geo-thermal heating in reply to TVB, 01-12-2008 07:34:13

All you conserve is followed by rate increases. You do want the utilities to make money don't you?

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ChrisB

01-12-2008 15:50:40

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Re: geo-thermal heating in reply to TVB, 01-12-2008 07:34:13

Wayne_H said: I'd suggest against open loop, unless you have a lake or pond near your house.
Wayne

Do such units work so well that a pond or lake would suffice over the cost of drilling? My impression was the deeper you go the warmer it is. Although I am sure there is some complex formula out there that takes in cost of pumping versus depth.... I would never of thought that a pond or lake would be deep enough.

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Wayne_H

01-12-2008 15:43:42

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Re: geo-thermal heating in reply to TVB, 01-12-2008 07:34:13

We have a 5 ton geothermal unit using 5 closed loop wells. (one per ton). Facts are facts, and when it gets real cold outside standard heat pumps do not work. (like below 20) Geothermal does not know the outside air temperature, so they work well regardless of the outside air temp. With that said, we have two units, a 3.5T and 1.8T. Both are Waterfurnace now. The 3.5T has had some problems (needed a new coaxial assembly and a new coil= 3k) and we replaced the upstairs unit entirely this year. I sort of hoped they would be more trouble free, but they were for the first 12 years, so I guess I can't complain too much.

Cooling in the summer is awesome. They rarely go on stage 2. Heating in the winter works them harder. (outside air is 20, room air is 70, so a delta of 50 degrees). But, ours works well with no resistive or aux heat to about 20 degrees. In Maryland it seldom gets below 20 anyway.

Our cooling bills are way less than our neighbors. Heating is less also, but not as great as saving as the cooling.

Would we do it again? Yes. Another big advantage is there is no outside units to look bad, collect leaves, and take up space.

As somebody said, get somebody to do your wells who knows what is going on. I'd suggest against open loop, unless you have a lake or pond near your house.

Wayne

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ChrisB

01-12-2008 15:42:32

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Re: geo-thermal heating in reply to TVB, 01-12-2008 07:34:13

Here in the cooler part of New England, my heating bill will be $0 per month or $0 per winter or $0 for the year (I like easy math) for 2400sqft. Well insulated and heated all with wood.
Sure I pay for the equipment and fuel to process the wood but I equate this cost to a gym membership.
Plus (if you read the latest university studies) I am doing the world good by selecting wood and not oil. In short not pulling something up from underground to burn that has no right being above ground, versus a dead tree would emit the same gases when dead plus new growth forest is better for a green earth.

Been heating with wood all my adult life and the one thing I witnessed in Europe and is key to any heating is the air that is burned. Applies to any type of combustible heat source in a house and is similar to why we all consider a regular fireplace so inefficient.
If your heat source (no matter what it might be) uses air inside the structure to burn , not only is it burning air that you already heated even more damaging it is creating a negative pressure in the house. This pressure will of course try to even itself out by sucking in outside cold air.
I have seen studies where 10% to 14% of savings where realized just by drawing in outside air to burn.
Unfortunately the trend has not caught on in the US as much, but I see it from time to time. My wood stove comes from Norway and I would not trade it for the world. It has duct work much like a dryer to suck air from the outside, thus the combustion gases and all are completely isolated from the inside air. Same with the oil heater here (if needed).
While I do not keep the house hot and the temp inside swings a lot, I will use about 5 cord a wood this year and half of that will be pine ( please no preaching about burning pine).....
I did look into Geo-thermal to compliment the wood. But like electric cars all I see is switching from one evil that you have no control over (oil or gas) to another evil that you have no control over (electricity).
Much like another poster mentioned they went back to 50 year old technology and switched to coal and saved significantly. I would much rather go back 100 years and save it all. Plus I stay warm when the lights are out. :)

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Hugh MacKay

01-12-2008 16:23:10

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Re: geo-thermal heating in reply to ChrisB, 01-12-2008 15:42:32

Chris: I like your math, coupled with the goals you've set. I used to sell fire wood, some was picked up and I delivered some. I had one customer, a banker, and bankers are always looking at feasability. One year during my delivery I asked him how wood ranked as being a feasable fuel. His responce, "I need exercise, I'll be damned if I'm going to jog through the neighborhood making a fool of myself, I'm not going to one of those gyms, etc., etc." He did say if he factored in his labor, wood was not an economical fuel

I then relayed a story to him about a hippy type school teacher who's wife needed a studio for he art work, thus they bought a 5,000 sq ft building that had been used as an auto showroom and offices, and turned it into a home and studio. He was always out jogging and she had the showroom full of her artsy-fartsy belongings. They lived right across from my mother inlaw. Heat was killing them on this big building, thus we saw a full trailer load of 8' hardwood arrive. He hired two guys to buck the wood with chain saws all this while he was out jogging. One evening my wife asked me to drop a parcel to her mother. On my way I met Woopie, (that name given him by his students) jogging close to 3 miles from his home. As I turned into my mother inlaws, I noticed in my rearview mirror someone splitting wood with a splitting axe. As I got out of the car, sure enough it was Mrs. Woopie splitting wood.

I then relayed the possible goals in this situation to my banker friend. I said, "here we are 18 months later and Mrs. Woopie has moved out and filed for divorce." The banker responded, " There you have it, one has to realize a man's goals before he makes a judgement call as to whether a given situation is feasable."

Happy heating and exercise Chris.

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pair-a-dice farm

01-12-2008 15:27:44

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Re: geo-thermal heating in reply to TVB, 01-12-2008 07:34:13

I got a ground source heat pump and am happy with it. Our house is about 30 years old and it is a retro fit so it probably not as efficient as a new home we are all electric and our total bill runs about $200 a month on 1900 SF a little higher in summer. My mother has a diesel furnace and runs her $1500 a winter just for heat on a similar house. I am in Arkansas

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Walt Davies

01-12-2008 14:30:29

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Re: geo-thermal heating in reply to TVB, 01-12-2008 07:34:13

I put in one of those high efficiency plastic water heaters last month and my bill dropped $10 I figure if I live to be 78 I brake even. That's not to bad HUH!!

I have a pellet stove and I love it except for today because I had to bring 10 bags up from the barn BUMMER.
Walt

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massey333

01-12-2008 14:10:07

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Re: geo-thermal heating in reply to TVB, 01-12-2008 07:34:13

TVB,IaGary gave you some good Info,however His is a new house built for a Heat Pump.RETRO FIT is a different story.I had a 6 Ton Geo unit for 12+years heating 2-1/2 times the house and it would run us $600 to $800 a month when the temp got below 10.We had two complete System failures that the Manf.made good,but the Maint cost got the best of us the last 2-3 yrs.I still believe in them but when I can buy an Air to Air with the same Eff.rateing and be less up front cost.If your paying 800 a month(not knowing what your gas is costing)you will never pay for the Unit in savings before the unit is wore out.We have built on since and now have a Super 5 Ton and two 2-1/2 T,with oil and gas Backups costing appox.$4-$500 a month. Just my exp.

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Kestrel in CT

01-12-2008 14:07:03

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Re: geo-thermal heating in reply to TVB, 01-12-2008 07:34:13

I installed a water-to-water geothermal system last year and am very satisfied. The contractor and well driller I hired specialize in geo here in CT. Make sure your well guy knows what he's doing. You don't want leaks in the loop years down the road.

Sure, its pricey but I had no practical alternative since I had a very inefficient oil burner with undersized ducting system in the house, also 3,000 sq.ft.

Besides, I'm too old to burn wood and too young for assisted living.

I have two 350' borings in a closed loop system that bring 50 degree water up into the heat pump (Waterfurnace) year round. From there it exchanges with an air handler in the basement and attic, thence ducted throughout the house.

System reverses for the summer cooling season.

Here's the rub. My electric company raised rates 50% recently. And that heat pump has a healthy appetite. My bills spiked !

What to do ? I fought back and just dropped another suitcase of money into a 7500w solar grid tied system. Now I'm in great shape, and carbon neutral in the process. Poor but happy and warm.

If you plan to stay in your house awhile and I do.....geothermal probably is the most efficient, clean, & labor friendly system over time.
Good luck

e-mail me if you want more details.

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J Heitkemper

01-12-2008 16:23:02

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Re: geo-thermal heating in reply to Kestrel in CT, 01-12-2008 14:07:03

We have a 55 ft deep well Here that serves the barn and emergency water needs for the house ,, Cistern water can run out during Droughts !! .

Anway is it possible to use Well Water to run thru the hot water radiators to cool this house and also Heat in tandem with Our outside Water Furnace ..Thanx Jim

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IaGary

01-12-2008 13:04:24

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Re: geo-thermal heating in reply to TVB, 01-12-2008 07:34:13

True geo=thermo heat will save you money.

I live in Iowa and houses like mine heated with lp will use about 700 gallon of lp a year.

At 1.50 a gallon thats $1050 for the winter.

I have 1700 square feet on the main floor and a basment of the same size thats is all heated.

My heat bill for the winter will be around $250.

This system uses water circulated thru the ground as the heat source.( water to air system.)

The system that was mentioned as used in the south uses outside air as its heat source.(Air to air system)

Gary

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Hugh MacKay

01-12-2008 16:47:01

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Re: geo-thermal heating in reply to IaGary, 01-12-2008 13:04:24

Gary: How much under ground piping does your system require and how deep do you have the piping?

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Mathias NY

01-12-2008 11:21:00

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Re: geo-thermal heating in reply to TVB, 01-12-2008 07:34:13

I'm not sure where you are located, in colder climates the geothermal systems have trouble pulling enough heat out of the ground, so a secondary heat source may still be needed.

I work with a guy who had a $4000 propane bill for one winter. The next year he spent $2000 on a coal stove, and spent only $500 to heat his home with. That was 3 years ago and he hasn't looked back. The coal stove is is a stoker unit and runs on rice coal, just like a wood pellet stove. It just puts out more BTU's per pound and per dollar than wood pellets. Many people have the belief that coal is dirty to burn, but it's not. Wood stoves give off more smoke and odor than the coal does.

Next year I plan to upgrade my oil furnace to a stoker coal furnace. At $2000 oil cost per year, I don't quite have the cost savings you guys with propane have... Good luck.

Stoker coal stoves

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Gun guru

01-12-2008 17:55:16

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Re: geo-thermal heating in reply to Mathias NY, 01-12-2008 11:21:00

What does rice coal in pellet form run per ton? Where do you buy coal? I am now paying $200/ton (best price I know of) for hardwood pellets.

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Gun guru

01-12-2008 10:57:04

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Re: geo-thermal heating in reply to TVB, 01-12-2008 07:34:13

I have been told that geo-thermal units work best south of the Mason/Dixon line. I dont know what state you are in but $800/month in Propane is really high. Have you looked into a Corn/Pellet burner. My Propane costs have dropped by 1/2. I love my corn/pellet burner. I use it only when I am home but you could run it 24/7 only shut it off for cleaning (which takes 10 minutes)

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phillip d

01-12-2008 08:11:25

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Re: geo-thermal heating in reply to TVB, 01-12-2008 07:34:13

My neighbour has it in their new home,it is about the same size as yours.They have in-floor heating up and down stairs.Theirs has two wells,one pumps out ,the other in,not sure if two is necessary,but that's what they have.It takes the water out at 40 degrees and compresses it to heat it up to 110 or 120,then circulates it through the floor.I think they said that their light bill went from 100 a month in the summer to 600 in the coldest months.But it gets as low as -40 here,sometimes for days or even weeks at a time,you have to keep that in mind.They have a comercial electric water heater incase of a failure.It does an excellent job heating their home,cost of heat is reasonable,500 a month during very cold months,no polution or chance of flue fire.They lost their previous home to a wood furnace fire and vowed never again,they narrowly escaped.

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Janicholson

01-12-2008 07:51:44

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Re: geo-thermal heating in reply to TVB, 01-12-2008 07:34:13

I think the issue is clearly in favor of doing it now. I used an abandoned well, at my house in northern Ohio, to provide a source of heat for a heat pump system. The well had water at the 40 foot level and down to 60 ft. I used a heat exchanger in the well to cool the well water without pumping it out of the well. The heat exchanger fluid was pumped through the evaporator of the heat pump system. It increased the efficiency of the electricity I used enough to compare it to the fuel oil furnace installed as primary heat. (At oil prices in the 1970s)
It is OK to be reducing your contribution to global warming. especially if it also increases your profitability. JimN

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KRUSS1

01-12-2008 14:03:10

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Re: geo-thermal heating in reply to Janicholson, 01-12-2008 07:51:44

I think geo thermal heat provides great savings. But even greater savings could be had if people could get over the idea that a family of two needs 2500 sg.ft. on two levels for living space.

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Joe in MN.

01-12-2008 14:38:33

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Re: geo-thermal heating in reply to KRUSS1, 01-12-2008 14:03:10

Now your cooking ---- why any one would want to live in a BIG house is not using any common sense -- if you have rooms your not using -- simply block them off.

as a Heating Engineer -- I know expenses would increase 20 years ago --- so I built a small but comfortable home -- and then -- I installed an out door boiler - cause I have the woods on my property --now my heating cost pennies --

Common Sense going a LONG Way ----

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George gregory Smith

01-13-2008 12:46:25

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Re: geo-thermal heating in reply to Joe in MN., 01-12-2008 14:38:33

I have an old farm house, built in 1910, remodeled and insulated well. I have been using a geothermo heat pump since 1980. It is a open loop system. It has been very good to me, and is keeping me warm right now, 27 years and counting. If it dies tomorrow a new one would be going as soon as possible. Our electric bill runs about 150.00 a month year round Heating and cooling, heating, cooking, hot water, and lights. My house is 32 ft sq, 2 floors and a basement, all heated.

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Joe in MN.

01-14-2008 04:56:51

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Re: geo-thermal heating in reply to George gregory Smith, 01-13-2008 12:46:25

I have about the same size house and use the same stuff on electric -- my electric bill is about $700. a year -- so saying that -- you have what is called reasonable on heating -- but for me -- it cost me pennies for heat -- and I heat a small swimming pool to boot. Electricity goes up every year -- so will your heating costs, mine don't ....

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