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Another easement question

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rodgernbama

12-21-2007 19:25:36




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I am looking at some property to buy but the agent told me there was an easement thru the property to get to a 60 acre tract which is landlocked. This easement runs very close to the house. I did a little investigating and saw where a previous propery owner sold this easement thru this property. I'm wondering if this guy sells and another owner divides the land would each of these people have rights to this easement. I told the realtor I won't be interested in this property unless the easement could be moved to the property boundary.

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MSD

12-22-2007 10:04:09




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 Re: Another easement question in reply to rodgernbama, 12-21-2007 19:25:36  
Besides all the good points brought up by the others, in my case the desput is who actually controls the easment and who is responsible for maintenace and in my case snow removal. The easment on my property says it is to be split 50-50. He over winters his cattle on the land served by the easment. My land is rented to another farmer and he only needs to use the first 400 ft. of a 1295ft. easment to get to my farm land. The first 400 ft. runs along side my son's property. After that he can drive on the farmland. The guy suing me wants $2200 for gravel and snow removal covering the last 5yrs even though nobody besides him uses it all winter. I've been adding up my cost on this strip of land. Beside cost of the land itself, I have lost $320 in crop rent, paid $210 in taxes, paid $314 in interest. All of this so he has the right to use my land and then charge me to keep it open for him to drive on. Oh ya, he says in his lawsuit that the $2200 is only 25% of the actual cost. I calculated that at that rate it comes out to $5040 per mile per year to maintain it his way. So, also consider these types of expenses before you even worry about somebody else driving on it. What will it cost you after you own it?

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TomTex

12-23-2007 05:34:43




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 Re: Another easement question in reply to MSD, 12-22-2007 10:04:09  
MSD, I have een following your posts and now I see that you have given some key information about your easement. Now you say the easement states "50-50 split" for upkeep, and that your renter (on your behalf) is using the easement. Whether its the "first 400 foot" or the full length of the easement makes no difference. By letting your renter use the easement, you are now a full partner in its use. If a court now rules that to amake it usable it needs to be gravelled and have snow removed, then you may be in for a full share of such expenses. You are really in a bind. You better get the best lawyer you can get and try to negotiate a total new easement or sell that strip of land. You have gotten into permanent headaches. Didn't your lawyer at closing time explain what a mess such an easement would be? I really feel sorry for you. Best luck with this. Tom

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John T Country Lawyer

12-22-2007 08:21:52




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 Re: Another easement question in reply to rodgernbama, 12-21-2007 19:25:36  
WOW you guys are really workin me on these easement questions lately but Im glad to offer a very limited and unresearched professional legal opinion which isnt worth much more then lay opinions posted here based on such limited information and not having researched your states common law. If you wanted a better legal opinion Id have to read all the deeds and research your states common law which requires a great amout of time along with my education and experience, so hopefully you understand why any professional or lay opinions here arent anything to hang your hat on lol. That all being said:

If theres a recorded easement on your property its SERVIENT to the DOMINANT property which uses it for ingerss and egress. There are two methods to dispose of it which would be to have the Dominat landholder grant you (have to buy it most likkely) a quitclaim deed for the sole purpose of relinquishing his rights or it being abandoned which would require expensive litigation and you would have to prove and I doubt the dominant landholder is gonna lay over for that.

Sooooo ooo the specific language of the easement now comes into play. From what you say (which may or may not be the case that only competent legal research can determine) it sounds like YES any successor land title holder behind you ALSO acrquires the rights from his prior title holder to cross over your land and you really dont have much to say about it PERIOD. This is subject to a few things. Its just more complicated then what it looks like here you see (i.e. why it requires legal research), but absent specific language to the contrary and absent the dominat landholder reserving rights and NOT granting alllll lll the right title and interest he had to his sucessors AGAIN YES THE SUCESSOR LAND HOLDERS THERE BEHIND YOU CAN ALSO CROSS YOUR PROPERTY

The thing most lay people fail to understand is that when you convey property by warranty deed (and say you also had dominant easement rights over another property) unless stated otherwise you are granting alllll lllll the right title and interst you have sooooo oo AGAIN yes the successor also acquired the sellers right to cross over your land and thats generally so REGARDLESS of any "successor and heirs and assigns language" often cited on deeds. There are indeed reasons why n when that language is used and it has legal consquences but in our hypothetical and provided the original easement (see why its language is so important) was done properly, again, those people behind you can cross over your property even if they dont know if they are heirs successors or assigns or never heard those words before lol because basically they are sucessors of their sellers title whether they are called such or not !!!!! !!! If the seller or original easement language specifically did NOT want successors heirs or assigns to acquire all title the seller had IT BETTER BE RESERVED AND DRAFTED RIGHT IN THE DEED

ALSO there are covenants that "run with the land" and some that DO NOT and all that makes a difference n comes into play Of course there are all sorts of end runs and exceptions and challenges and a ton of things to be done here and complex legal issues which is why NO PROFESSIONAL OR LAY OPININS HERE mean anyhtiNG when you get in court in your local jurisdiction.

BOTTOM LINE UNRESEARCHED FREE LEGAL OPINION

Those people behind you most likely DO have the rights over your property and unless and until a court rules otherwise YOU BETTER PROCEED ASSUMING SUCH IS TRUE. I definitely WOULD NOT believe any realtors or lay persons or even unresearched professional opinion to the contrary in the meantime. That easement is as matter of record for now and until its ruled otherwise WHICH IS YOUR EXPENSIVE BURDEN TO REMOVE youre probably (based on laws n research not done herein) STUCK WITH IT

John T (Retired electrical engineer now attorney in Indiana)

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jdemaris

12-22-2007 07:10:14




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 Re: Another easement question in reply to rodgernbama, 12-21-2007 19:25:36  
Read it - and look for "heirs and assigns forever."

Also keep in mind that in many states - a roadway that has been publically used for X amount of years - already has a permanent easement - regardless if it's in writing or not. Search your state's highway law. Proving it may be difficult, though. Once you cross someone's land - against their will - you're tresspassing until YOU prove otherwise. They don't have to prove a thing other than ownership - and that you know about their ownership. And if you do it against their will openly, and they don't stop you - and you don't wind up in jail - you then can be establishing an adverse use. Personally - I'd just as soon throw anybody in jail who attempts it - but that's just my humble opinion. And, some states do not allow it at all.

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TomH in PA

12-22-2007 04:30:07




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 Re: Another easement question in reply to rodgernbama, 12-21-2007 19:25:36  
Now is the time to contact the owner of the 60 acres and see if he will agree to moving the lane. You should assume it's going to be used as if it's a public road. Even though it's a private right-of-way, you have essentially no control over it.



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Big Hunter

12-22-2007 03:44:22




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 Re: Another easement question in reply to rodgernbama, 12-21-2007 19:25:36  
I don't know right from wrong in this situation but I had a job where I guy owned some acreage (small large I don't know) and he told me there was a right of way to his mothers house (she died and he was going to sell the house) he had me dress up the right of way and start to spread number 2 stone to recover/renew the driveway that has been there for years. I didn't see the guy on this side of the right of way but...the guy on that side (maybe it was running on his property) came out and told me to stop what I was doing and put it back the way it was. I said you mean you want the ruts back in there he said yes it was on his property and that is the way he wanted it. I parked my machine and a few days later I moved off the job. I don't know what happened other then the owner of the grandmothers house told me they always have had trouble with him (he was a jerk) I'm pretty sure they went to court over this... LAWYER FEES... but as I remember I drove past there a couple YEARS later and there was a driveway there.

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Tradititonal Farmer

12-22-2007 03:32:09




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 Re: Another easement question in reply to rodgernbama, 12-21-2007 19:25:36  
In the the county I'm in the width of the easement governs how many lots it can service.15ft and under 1 house,15'-25' 2houses
35'-50' 5 houses over 50'unlimited



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Hobo,NC

12-22-2007 15:44:28




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 Re: Another easement question in reply to Tradititonal Farmer, 12-22-2007 03:32:09  
Werks the same way here,,,, say you are the last house on the easement,,, 5 use the easement,,, you buy 80 acres behind you,,, you want to put a house on part of it,,, No can do the easement is full up,,, same as land locked,,, you can git a easement with a fight from property owners that surround it,,, its never good to have to fight for one. This little bit of info did git my buddy"s property tax lowered on the 80.

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noncompos

12-21-2007 22:07:42




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 Re: Another easement question in reply to rodgernbama, 12-21-2007 19:25:36  
Rodgers talking about "overburdening an easement" (other States may use different terms), like:
A sells B 5 ac back of the barn, granting B a road and utility easement from the 5 ac to the public road. The understanding at the sale is that B and his successors will live on the 5 ac as a single-family site...
Later B or a successor decides to cut up the 5 acres, and will grant each new piece the right to use the easement...
A says "NO!,that easement was for single family use only, and it's going to stay that way!", and refuses to take more money from B for the proposed additional use...
The question is: how many pieces (if any) of B's 5 acres can legally use the original easement??? Or is the easement only valid for one-family use???
The answer is John T Country Lawyers answer in the easement post below: it depends upon your state's laws, the interpretations of those laws and how they're customarily applied in your state, and to determine that you need the best real estate/land law atty you can find (afford?). In rodgers case, the fact that he wasn't a party to, and has no knowledge of what the understanding might've been at the time of the easement grant, seriously complicates the question. It wouldn't be surprising to hear the seller maintain it was a "single-family" easement at the same time the owner of the 60 acres is as loudly claiming the easement was to serve a 350 lot subdivision (that's an exaggeration, but not much). With sympathy, Bud

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Mike (WA)

12-22-2007 08:16:24




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 Re: Another easement question in reply to noncompos, 12-21-2007 22:07:42  
The "discussions" at the time generally make no difference- it's what's written in the easement that counts. At least in Washington, verbal agreements regarding real estate are unenforceable. As to the easement, it would go with however many lots the original benefitted property was divided into, but another piece of property not benefitted by the original easement can't use it- that is "over-burdening" the easement. A limitation in the easement to "one single family residence" or some such is enforceable, however, as long as its in writing and is properly recorded.

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noncompos

12-22-2007 10:07:36




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 Re: Another easement question in reply to Mike (WA), 12-22-2007 08:16:24  
MikeWA: I've not worked in WA, so have no knowledge on WA points.
With "overburdening" I think we're into the confusion resulting from using terms from one state for a situation in another state, where the term may not mean quite the same thing.
AT THE TIME I QUIT IN CA, AND AT THE TIME I RETIRED IN OR(10+ yrs now) rodgers parcel would be subject to the easement "appurtenant" to the 60 ac parcel (that esmt would be legally limited to the 60ac parcel ONLY)...at that time an esmt appurtenant to one parcel COULD NOT be switched to a third parcel, NOR could the owner of the 60ac legally grant to any third parcel the right to use the 60 ac's easmt over rodgers parcel.
WHEN I RETIRED, with the real estate surge, people owning larger parcels wishing to give their children homesites on the old place, or wishing to sell off a few pieces for retirement money, resulting in increased use of the orignal esmt, was becoming a larger and larger problem: mtg lenders wanted a Title Co to insure their esmt, and the Title Co's were spooky about the risk (where would rodger freak: at two families? four? fifteen? using the emst?). AT THAT TIME THERE WERE NO CONTROLLING LEGAL DECISIONS THE TITLE CO'S COULD RELY ON.
With all due respect, and the understanding that I'm both out of touch and unfamiliar with WA decisions, I'd still find it very surprising-very-that the 60 ac owner (if in WA)could split his tract into unlimited parcels, without some further agreement with or compensation to rodger, without running the risk of legally sustainable objections from rodger.
I'd be more than happy to discuss this further, and be brought up to date on WA decisions on these points; please feel free to email.
(All the capitals were to stress that my experience is dated). With sympathy, Bud

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John T

12-22-2007 12:59:02




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 Re: Another easement question in reply to noncompos, 12-22-2007 10:07:36  
The usual FIX in those situations around here is the planning authority makes the developer dedicate a "real" roadway somewhere which might be obtained from the purchase of more land or even possibly condemnation BEFORE they will approve the plan. I agree the original easement cant be expaned upon indefinitely but had to tailor my answer on the safe side to protect the land owner i.e. he best assume the easement remains in force for the time being.

I think this helps point out whyyyyy yy its impossible to answer a question on here and cover even 10% of let alone alllll l the bases..

merry Christmas Yall

John T

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paul

12-21-2007 20:23:12




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 Re: Another easement question in reply to rodgernbama, 12-21-2007 19:25:36  
I would do as you did.

Easements can sure be trouble.

--->Paul



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