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Save the world????

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Nebraska Cowman

12-12-2007 16:10:53




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I started a reply but was getting off-topic so will start a new thread. Keep the replies polite guys.

Does not a field of corn put oxygen in the air?
Can you prove we even have global warming? A few degrees change over the last hundred years does not mean much in the overall picture.
How many people burn live productive trees for heat? Everyone I know burns deads, tops, and waste wood. I think the world is sadly misinformed. And I would like to know how many gallons of oil are used to produce a gallon of ethanol. Include fuel used to produce the fertilizer, as well as all the direct and indirect fuel uses involved in growing the corn crop and delivering the finished product to your car. Now there is my rambling thoughts. Fire away, I'll listen.

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trucker40

12-13-2007 13:53:22




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 Re: Save the world???? in reply to Nebraska Cowman, 12-12-2007 16:10:53  
Sure a field of corn puts out oxygen.My poor little brain doesnt see how you could not be making more energy than you put in to make Ethanol,as long as the figures you put in are honest.Whats not honest ,I think is the price charged for E-85,ought to be lower,but I dont know everything it costs to make it,they have got to pay their help at those plants,ship it by rail,deliver by truck,but they still have the feed?Dont know about that. I seriously think that if we did whatever,made our cars run on water,some of these crooks would find a way to get control of it and charge a ridiculous price for it.They allways have some excuse.Look at television,it was free,now if you want to watch a good show you need a satellite,which costs more all the time,they even try to make your TV not work any more with HD. Maybe the problem is that the powers that be,need to be changed,and we need to change them. I dont see what China has to do with the price of gas here,or anywhere.What about all that oil that we ship to Japan from the Alaska pipeline.Well there is no reason trying to make sense out of these crooks,that wont work.The only sense is the sense that we have.We are getting robbed,and every bit of propaganda that comes from government or the news is a lie. It has to be that if we make ethanol,and even better if we can make some better solar panels,that we can get to where we dont need oil from anywhere but here.Thats if the lying bunch that think they run things dont give away the whole country to where we dont exist.That whats going on with their new world order lie Maybe we can make some kind of big net,catch one of them flying saucers,plug the world into it and use that for electricity.Then we can hook the energizer bunny to the flying saucer in the summer when everybody uses air conditioning.

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Robert Huntress

12-13-2007 13:23:49




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 Re: Save the world???? in reply to Nebraska Cowman, 12-12-2007 16:10:53  
The day a cheap method of extracting methane from manure is discovered, Washington DC will become the energy producing capital of the world.



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TomTex

12-13-2007 11:06:33




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 Re: Save the world???? in reply to Nebraska Cowman, 12-12-2007 16:10:53  
Might as well guit worring about all this. Its broke and you cant fix it. Our economy is on its way down/out, and you haven't seen nothing yet. We have become/are becoming a two-language country which alone will end our democracy in 20-30 years. As for oil, China's need for oil products is going to grow exponentially for the next 40-50 years. They are pouring all the profits from all the sales to USA into armaments. When mid-east supplies dwindle against this increased demand, China will dramatically out-bid us for the crude. They are able to do this because we have become a nation of penny-pinchers who always put cheap ahead of quality, such as Wally World. We are now completely dependent on China-made junk, and can't even sort out which language we want. Can't control borders, can't enforce law. This is not a receipe for long-term survival. Get ready for limited, rationed supplies of fuel for 10-15 bucks per gallon, and the resultant end to this USA as we know it. Tom

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Dick Lemmon

12-13-2007 12:06:18




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 Re: Save the world???? in reply to TomTex, 12-13-2007 11:06:33  
Man!
Listening to you suicide is the only answer.
And right when our national economy is at a high and more total tax dollars are being collected by our government than ever.
You do have a coupla rational points but take a deep breath. It aint over.



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TomTex

12-13-2007 16:07:32




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 Re: Save the world???? in reply to Dick Lemmon, 12-13-2007 12:06:18  
Dick, I am only trying to be realistic. Which of my points do you think is not true?? 1. This nation cannot survive with two languages, and an injection of 20-30 million illegals given instant amnesty. Past immigrants came here to assimilate into our society, speak our language, and make a contribution. These folks pledge their allegiencies to Mexico, speak Mexico's language, break all our laws, bankrupt the medical systems. etc. etc.
2. We are really totally dependent on China goods. If the supply from China was cut off, every store in America would be virtually empty. Don't believe it, go in a Wally World and look for something made in USA. I guarantee you it will be less than 5 percent of the goods for sale.
3. China is makeing vast fortunes from all these sales to USA. Where do they put the profits? Into WMD (weapons of mass destruction). Scary?
4. Only one family in 15 or 20 in China have a car. But the rate is changing very rapidly. With their population, the future demand for oil will outstrip our wildest dreams. How much can they pay per barrel? 200 dollars? 400 dollars? Remember in point 3 they are selling junk to us like crazy. Where will we get our oil when their demand grows to meet all mid-east output??
5. As a nation, we have been spending on the big credit card in the sky, until we have run up TRILLIONS of dollars of dept. How long could you last as an individual if you continued to spend on credit cards with no way to pay back. Now an ever larger portion of our national budget is just to pay the interest on all the debt. How can the USA pay this off?? I am waiting for someone's answer?
6. Now if you consider only these problems, doesn't golbal warming look like a walk in the park by comparison?
Did not mean to depress you. I am not depressed since I am 66 years old. We have lived in the best times, but our grandkids will really have it ruff.
Tom

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Dick L

12-13-2007 18:24:30




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 Re: Save the world???? in reply to TomTex, 12-13-2007 16:07:32  
I am 4 years older than you then. The language thing needs to be just English as a way to communicate out side of ones home in my opinion.

I heard the gloom and doom about Japans products as I was growing up. It then moved to Hong Cong, Twain and then to main land China. There was a coupla other third world countries that brought crys of doom thru the years. As the wage costs in those countries rise and there products costs go up it then switches to a less advanced country.

The only way we will run out of oil is if the politicians continue to listen to special interest groups rather than to the facts. I do not think that will happen. Special interests can only predict the end of our world is only 20 years away for 40 or 50 years before the majority of the voters say enough is enough. As I remember this has a good 20 years or more already. We know that some will always be hawking a gloom and doom cause to keeping from working for there keep and have others that do earn a living send in money to there cause.


I personally will always look at the glass as half full rather than half empty. I have six great grand children with two more on the way and I expect them to have a richer life than myself.

Other peoples opinions never depress me nor does it cause me to be upset. You have a right to your opinion and a right to express it as I also do. I am just dismayed by doom and gloom. I like to hear the ideas of ways to fix problems based on facts. Ideas that provoke thought not discord.

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Mike (WA)

12-13-2007 08:56:32




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 Re: Save the world???? in reply to Nebraska Cowman, 12-12-2007 16:10:53  
Everybody is bleating that it takes more fuel to produce biofuel than you get out of it. WELL, OF COURSE IT DOES! It also takes more fuel to produce a purse, or a pickup truck, or a house, than the end product produces! The laws of thermodynamics wouldn't have it any other way! If you grow an acre of corn and sell it for feed, you have all the same fuel inputs everyone is talking about, and how much fuel have you ended up producing? NONE! So there has been no impact on the oil needed to run our society. You used 5 gallons of oil to produce your crop, I used 5 gallons to fuel my car, 10 gallons pumped out of the ground. But if you produce some biofuel with it, you have reduced the amount of oil we need for society, resulting in less pumping out of the ground. You still used 5 gallons of oil, but you produced 4 gallons of ethanol or biodiesel. I USED YOUR 4 GALLONS OF BIOFUEL in my car, so I only needed to use 1 gallon out of the ground. So for the same "system", 4 less gallons of oil was pumped out.

Naturally, if we had an earth full of free (for the pumping) fuel, turning to biofuels would be nonsensical. But we don't- evidenced by the rise in gas prices from 34 cents to 3 bucks plus in our lifetimes. The oil's getting short, folks, and will eventually run out. The best we can do is stretch things for as long as possible. Of course, the food vs. fuel thing will work itself out as the two compete for farmland use (and as petroleum vs. biofuel compete on cost). If we keep demanding fuel despite rising costs, then food costs will increase until everybody finally decides they'd rather eat than travel. How's it all going to end up? Not well, I'm afraid- there will be a serious redistribution of wealth, either peacefully through government, or forcefully as the masses decide they must either steal or starve. It ain't gonna be pretty.

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Wayne from Wi

12-14-2007 18:53:15




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 Re: Save the world???? in reply to Mike (WA), 12-13-2007 08:56:32  
To use the laws of thermodynamics, be sure to use all components of the formula. In this case add sunlight (photosynthisis), soil bacteria and water. In a hay crop, sunlight and water is over 80% of the yield. Likely something similar occurs for corn. Wayne



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Dick L

12-13-2007 09:30:11




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 What Some Do Not Realise in reply to Mike (WA), 12-13-2007 08:56:32  
When you get done extracting the ethanol from corn you still have corn to feed. Some have set up to feed it in the wet stage. It does take more energy to dry it for bagging to ship much of a distance.
I keep hearing that the corn should be going for feed rather than fuel. Corn looses very little feed value in the extracting fuel.

Corn distillers dried grains/solubles (DDGS) are recovered in the distillery and contain all the nutrients from the incoming corn minus the starch. Thus, the DDGS has at least threefold the nutrients as the incoming grain. Since the stillage is recycled, the ratio of these more valuable amino acid types continues to increase so that eventually they represent approximately 16% of the final DDGS's amino acid content. No other feed ingredient results from such a great percentage of microbial products and their back stocking. DDGS typically analyzes at 27% protein, 11% fat and 9% fiber.

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RodInNS

12-13-2007 19:37:38




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 Re: What Some Do Not Realise in reply to Dick L, 12-13-2007 09:30:11  
What you essentially do is change corn from an energy feed into a protein suppliment....
The main reason corn is grown for animal feed is it's energy (starch).
I can only imagine that protein is going to get cheap one of these days if we ever get to distilling enough alcohol from corn and squeezing the oil from beans and canola.... Energy on the other hand will be..... darn expensive.

Rod

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Dustin hartmann

12-13-2007 07:59:52




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 Re: Save the world???? in reply to Nebraska Cowman, 12-12-2007 16:10:53  
I agree with cowman



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philcaseinWPA

12-13-2007 07:48:40




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 OT and long WARNING: political overtones in reply to Nebraska Cowman, 12-12-2007 16:10:53  
I was a Biology major in the late 60's. I had a class in human ecology. I was there on the first Earthday. I've seen all kinds of dire predictions. I even believed them. I finished my degree and even earned an MS in biology. Here are some observations from the last 40 years: 1. We did not all die from pollution, global cooling, over population, use of pesticides, use of coal, or anything else. Rather in most modern cultures we are living longer and healthier lives. Cancer is not more prevalent, just more people are living longer and thus getting cancer. If you can survive everything else cancer will get you.

2. Modern agriculture has not resulted in famine and starvation. Rather we are able to produce more with less, and at a consumer price less than what it cost 40 years ago (certainly with inflation adjusted and often without considering inflation).

3. Politicians and activists are still politicians and activists. They have their own agenda and don't let the facts get in the way. Usually this involves putting money into their own pockets.

4. Celebrities still do not have credentials in the areas of their 'causes' but are believed by the large majority of the sheople because they get on tv.

5. Capitalism and a strong United States defense did not lead to a nuclear war. Rather a robust capitalist economy led to the economic collapse of communist USSR and the end of the cold war. We are safer today from a WWIII nuclear war than any time in the last 40 years. (Beware of China) This is not to say limited use of nuclear weapons won't be used on us or someone else by terrorist or other rouge nation but all out world destruction by all out nuclear war is unlikely today if not just impossible. Also remember MAD really did work during the cold war.

6. The evil capitalist west with all it's evil money and greed is the only economic system with enough wealth to clean up after itself, provide a better life style for it's citizens, have enough resources to to identify problems and invest enough in research to find solutions.

7. This doesn't mean we continue on blindly and blissfully as we always have, and we haven't. We are more aware of our environment, more conscientious about waste and pollution and more concerned about our health. We still have problems and we create new ones as we solve old ones but let's not throw out the baby with the bath water.

Cowman, sorry for maybe hijacking your post but I got started on a rant and couldn't stop. Phil Eat right, exercise, die anyway!

disclaimer: The opinions expressed are solely those of philcaseinWPA and should not be considered as fact or truth. Actually philcaseinWPA is not even sure of his opinions sometimes.

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Dick Lemmon

12-13-2007 07:27:42




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 Re: Save the world???? in reply to Nebraska Cowman, 12-12-2007 16:10:53  
One of the things needed to be done to stop global warming is to make some big plugs to keep volcanoes from erupting. Each year many more amounts of what is called green house gases are released into the air than man has ever manufactured or caused.
Much more credit is given to mans abilities to cause a global changes than is realistic.

All of us East of Mt St Helen were suppose to die early from all the gas and ash that was put in the air when she erupted a few years back. Sorry to disappoint the so called experts but, but, but I am still here.

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Jack a

12-13-2007 04:03:56




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 Re: Save the world???? in reply to Nebraska Cowman, 12-12-2007 16:10:53  
We are breathing, eating and drinking hundreds of different chemicals everyday. It has only gotten worse and will only get worse unless we do something. For that reason alone I would be for limiting pollution, global warming aside.



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Joe in MN.

12-13-2007 05:30:57




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 Re: Save the world???? in reply to Jack a, 12-13-2007 04:03:56  
Are you kidding ??? Man can't and Won't do anything ---- it's just the way it is -- and will be ....



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Don-Wi

12-13-2007 02:22:15




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 Re: Save the world???? in reply to Nebraska Cowman, 12-12-2007 16:10:53  
I'm just gonna throw in my $.02 worth.

Global warming, while we may contribute to it in some slightly remote way, is just a cycle of the earth. What killed the dinosaurs? The Ice Age. Then it warmed up again. It takes more than a couple years for these changes to take place and is all a part of the natural cycle.

Yes we should try and get off of foreign oil to power our economy though.

The only thing that has changed on our farm are the input costs. We don't sell any grains of any kind, so while the higher returns are good for most of you guys who raise corn and soybeans, we only have a larger fuel and fertilizer bill to pay in order to feed our small herd.

Most of you guys have no idea what it is like to have to try and keep a farm going the way we run it. We only have about 50 head, and we only have about 70 acres to sustain them on. Now 70 acres isn't nearly enough so every year we need to buy lots of hay and basically pray that we have good weather so that we get as much as we can out of our hay and corn fields.

Every year we plant about 30-35 acres of corn and that will ussually fill both of our small silos and get us by for 10 months. In a good year, we can also fill a bag. This year we filled a 10'x150' bag, as well as most of our silo space. That lets us cut back on the hay so we don't have to buy as much. The other 2 months without corn silage, we ussually feed them better quality 2nd and 3rd crop hay to try and keep the milk up some, and we also feed them some haylage if we happen to have some we chopped only to beat the weather. Otherwise all of our hay is baled and stored in the barn.

We try to seed down a new hay field every year(5-10 acres, sometimes more), use oats as a cover over the alfalfa and then combine the grain off and feed it out over the year, and clean some for planting the next year.

Both of my parents work off the farm as well as myself, and if we didn't there is no way the farm could go on without the extra income from working off the farm. For us, a major expense is a $500 repair bill, not to mention the $1200 that we scraped together last spring to buy and fix up a newer hydroswing haybine that sped up our haying time considerably only because now I cut 14' instead of 9'. For some of you, $5000 isn't a very major expense and can get something just because you feel like it or think it's worth it.

We do lots of things the old fashined way because we simply can't afford to upgrade. We need a decent hay rake, but even a old used one will cost over $1000 it seems. Our corn planter is getting old and isn't as accurate as it could be, but a much newer 25 year old planter is still $2500 or more. We just can't afford to buy all the things we really need to replace.

I watch some guys on here just seem to throw money around like they've got a money tree out back and it almost makes me feel sick.

Sorry to rant and go off in another direction, but some things just get built up for a very long time.

Donovan from Wisconsin

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Dave from MN

12-13-2007 05:29:33




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 Re: Save the world???? in reply to Don-Wi, 12-13-2007 02:22:15  
In my honest opinion, there should be more and more farmers like you. Keeping it simple. Your in it to make a living and to live the life you love. Currently there is still many millionairs and others not as rich, doing all they can to get as much land as possible and get as big as they can. We all know the reasons why and if they are doing it ethically I cant beat them to hard. At the same time I am also seeing more and more smaller guys trying to get in to it. Some guys are holding at 20 milk cows up to 100, others are trying to get cash cropping on 40-600 acres. Thats what I like. As I always say, there is only so much farm land and it is shrinking every year. Farming will some day be a very sustainable and profitable career some day, but if all the little guys give up, arent smart about managing, the benifits will only be reaped by the mega farmers. God Bless your family and your farm.

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David Midkiff

12-13-2007 04:20:33




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 Re: Save the world???? in reply to Don-Wi, 12-13-2007 02:22:15  
Amen Brother.



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DitchWI

12-12-2007 22:11:50




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 Re: Save the world???? in reply to Nebraska Cowman, 12-12-2007 16:10:53  
If you think you"re energy cost are high now, just wait until these global warming pukes push there agendas through congress. Check out this site just to see whats down the pike.
epw.senate.gov



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135 Fan

12-12-2007 20:22:43




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 Re: Save the world???? in reply to Nebraska Cowman, 12-12-2007 16:10:53  
Quite a few years ago I was listening to the radio while driving home and Steve Martin came on. He had the most easy to understand theory about the ozone layer. The reason we can't let the ozone layer get depleted is because up above the ozone layer is the fart zone. If the ozone layer was depleted all the farts would come back down to earth... but not necessarily where they came from. Hmmm? Dave

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gene bender

12-12-2007 19:12:26




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 Re: Save the world???? in reply to Nebraska Cowman, 12-12-2007 16:10:53  
The guy from CORNELL needs to use current data he forgets that the rest of the corn is fed to dairy and cattle and also other products or isnt milk and steak food? How come there is such a surpluss of food just watch the FARMER put it on the table but he has to make money to survie. We should be thankful some great people are willing to stick their neck out and gamble every yr so the fat bellies and whiners have plenty to eat.DONT CUSS THE FARMER ON A FULL BELLEY.

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johndeere plowboy

12-12-2007 19:07:36




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 Re: Save the world???? in reply to Nebraska Cowman, 12-12-2007 16:10:53  
Isn"t switch grass more econonical to make into ethnol than corn ? I read that somewhere . not sure.



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IaGary

12-12-2007 19:58:53




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 Re: Save the world???? in reply to johndeere plowboy, 12-12-2007 19:07:36  
They are still developing the process to make ethanol out of cellulose.

It is 6 to 7 years away.

It may work but I have my doubts.

Gary



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Duane(Pa)

12-12-2007 19:25:02




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 Re: Save the world???? in reply to johndeere plowboy, 12-12-2007 19:07:36  
Switchgrass has potential, the science to convert it efficiently to alchohol hasn't been perfected. It will however, grow on marginal land not suitable for other agronomic crops. Meanwhile there is considerable BTU's available for things like pellet fuel. We just have to find a way to tell those oil exporting countries that we don't need their oil anymore than we need their sand. There's a guy running for Prez that says stuff like that. We should be listening.

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Duane(Pa)

12-12-2007 18:58:00




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 Re: Save the world???? in reply to Nebraska Cowman, 12-12-2007 16:10:53  
I read a news article that said alot of ice melted this summer in Greenland. (anyone want to guess how it got it's name centuries ago) And the melting caused the sea level to rise, drum roll please..... . two count em' TWO hundredths of an inch. For you boys with micrometers and calipers that's .020 inch (common breaker point gap)Went on to say that in a thousand years the ocean level will affect coastal cities. Somehow, I think the $hit's going to hit the fan before that! If you think for one minute that we're going to tell China or anyone else for that matter, to lower emmissions, I have news for ya' not going to happen. Industrial revolutions cause polution. Ours is over and theirs is just getting started

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RodInNS

12-12-2007 19:55:57




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 Re: Save the world???? in reply to Duane(Pa), 12-12-2007 18:58:00  
So what happens when there isn't enough oil left to fire China's industrial revolution..... .?

I can hazard a guess, and I don't think it's going to be pretty.

Rod



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El Toro

12-12-2007 18:51:08




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 Re: Save the world???? in reply to Nebraska Cowman, 12-12-2007 16:10:53  
They never seem to mention the tons of fuel being burnt by airplanes and those jet engines can consume a lot of fuel. No emission restrictions either. Hal



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Gene Dotson

12-13-2007 02:52:20




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 Re: Save the world???? in reply to El Toro, 12-12-2007 18:51:08  
El Toro;

Just to clarify your thinking, the entire aviation industry uses 0.3 percent of the country.s total fuel consumption. This includes all types of commercial and general aviation... Gene



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Duane(Pa)

12-13-2007 17:41:47




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 Re: Save the world???? in reply to Gene Dotson, 12-13-2007 02:52:20  
Are you saying three tenths of one percent? I'm skeptical about the accuracy of that.



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Duane(Pa)

12-13-2007 18:02:31




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 Re: Save the world???? in reply to Duane(Pa), 12-13-2007 17:41:47  
A quick google search: 2005 jet fuel consumption 55 billion us gallons and that when burnt produces 540 million tons of co2 The numbers are just nuts. I'm surprized the crust of the earth doesn't settle from withdrawls.



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Jerry/MT

12-12-2007 20:49:15




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 Re: Save the world???? in reply to El Toro, 12-12-2007 18:51:08  
Not true re: emmision restrictions. Aircraft engines have emmission limits on NOx, CO, and unburned Hydrocarbons and must be certified to be within those EPA Limits.



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Duane(Pa)

12-12-2007 19:02:40




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 Re: Save the world???? in reply to El Toro, 12-12-2007 18:51:08  
Take it from a pilot. Bizzzzz illllion tons!



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Janicholson

12-12-2007 18:37:04




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 Re: Save the world???? in reply to Nebraska Cowman, 12-12-2007 16:10:53  
Realism is not local, at this point, it is global. The north polar Ice melted to 50% of its normal size this past summer. The Issue is not a few human felt degrees which we tolerate, it is melting of glaciers and ice caps on land (Greenland and Antarctica are all holding water above sea level it is melting and millions of real people live near the shores of oceans. Disbelievers are not foolish, it is just so far out of the realm of experience, and subtle that it just seems deniable. It is not. Disruption and weird weather patterns are the primary effect. JimN. Environmental and Technological Studies St. Cloud State University. A realist with Farmalls.

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jeremy in NE

12-12-2007 18:00:59




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 Re: Save the world???? in reply to Nebraska Cowman, 12-12-2007 16:10:53  
I don't think that ethanol is the solution to our energy problems and I don't know what the solution is, but at least it is a step away from supporting the middle east. Also Gary wouldn't you have to include the fuel usage of the people that produced the seed corn and fertilizer and so on back to get an accurate gallonage used.



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IaGary

12-12-2007 18:51:59




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 Re: Save the world???? in reply to jeremy in NE, 12-12-2007 18:00:59  
I did include it.

You know they are not selling the product for less then they have in it, which would include all fuel costs.

I added the told cost as fuel cost into my gallons to produce an acre.

And all the costs of the seed and so on are not all fuel related but I did add them in as such.

Gary



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Joe in MN.

12-12-2007 17:35:38




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 Re: Save the world???? in reply to Nebraska Cowman, 12-12-2007 16:10:53  
You bring up an interesting point --- here's my take on this Global Warming ----- The Earth Started out Warm and Tropical --- and it will end up Warm and Tropical ---- Man (Thinks) he can do some thing about it -- but he is DEAD WRONG ....Simple as that ....

Thanks for your ear ....



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Tradititonal Farmer

12-12-2007 17:20:48




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 Re: Save the world???? in reply to Nebraska Cowman, 12-12-2007 16:10:53  
Global Warming may be a fact as the Earth has always been either cooling or warming and there is no reason to believe it will stop doing one or the other.MAN MADE Global Warming theory is a scam to to give gov't more control over the daily lives of citizens and to extract more $$$ from all of us.



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phillip d

12-12-2007 17:14:01




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 Re: Save the world???? in reply to Nebraska Cowman, 12-12-2007 16:10:53  
Furnace oil at 95 cents a liter,or over 3 bucks a gallon,times 8 gallons a day to heat our centurey home in our cold winters.That takes nearly half my net pay to keep our @$$e$ warm.I'll just burn wood here thanks.



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MarkB_MI

12-12-2007 17:07:10




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 Re: Save the world???? in reply to Nebraska Cowman, 12-12-2007 16:10:53  
The point made by the global warming camp is that when we burn fossil fuels, we release into the atmosphere large amounts of carbon that have been trapped underground for millions of years in coal and oil deposits. I don't think anyone can disagree with this point. The point of contention is whether or not this added carbon has any effect of the climate.

Yes, we do burn or otherwise consume other, non-fossil forms of carbon, including wood and grain. But trees and other plants can be replaced, reabsorbing the carbon previously released. But there is no simple way to recover carbon from the atmosphere and return it to underground deposits, which is what you need to do to recover carbon from fossil fuels.

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onefarmer

12-12-2007 17:19:45




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 Re: Save the world???? in reply to MarkB_MI, 12-12-2007 17:07:10  
Thank you, that is what I was trying to say in that other thread.



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iowa_tire_guy

12-12-2007 17:06:55




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 Re: Save the world???? in reply to Nebraska Cowman, 12-12-2007 16:10:53  
Okay Cowman, I want to pickup on one of your comments and ask a question about it. We keep hearing that trees put oxygen in the air and they are our friends so go hug them. (Or go hug your corn plant) But is is really true that plants put oxygen in the air? As I remember my high school science the plant takes in the air, traps and uses the carbon dioxide and nitrogen, and then releases a higher concentration of oxygen back into the air that it took in. Just the same as we do when we breath except we use the oxygen and release everything else into the air. So if this is true then can we say that plants produce oxygen? Not really. We live in a closed system. There is no more oxygen or carbon or any element than there ever was. They are just tied up in one form or another. When a tree is cut down and burnt it doesn't produce anymore heat or carbon or anything else than if it falls and rots where it stood.

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71ford100

12-12-2007 18:34:26




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 Re: Save the world???? in reply to iowa_tire_guy, 12-12-2007 17:06:55  
Photosynthesis equation:

6H(2)0 + 6CO(2) yields in the presence of light C(6)H(12)O(6) (Glucuse) + 6O(2) Everything in parenthisis are subscripts. Plants were not put here to give us oxygen we should all remember that. My agroecology professor usually doesnt even write down O2 in the equation because it isn't important to the plant. Get back to me in 4 years and I might know some more since this is my major area.

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71ford100

12-12-2007 18:36:28




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 Re: Save the world???? in reply to 71ford100, 12-12-2007 18:34:26  
I would also like to add that Oxygen is not a heat trapping gas. CH(4) (methane), Water Vapor, Carbon Dioxide CO(2) and Ozone O(3) are the major heat trapping gases. My theory after my agroecology class is this is the real end of the little ice age and the planet is now warming up to where it was in the 1300's.



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Robert Huntress

12-12-2007 17:04:20




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 Re: Save the world???? in reply to Nebraska Cowman, 12-12-2007 16:10:53  
"It is my turn to cringe when I hear overstated-confidenc... from those who
describe the projected evolution of global weather patterns over the next
100 years, especially when I consider how difficult it is to accurately
predict the system's behavior over the next five days." John Christy, University of Alabama in Huntsville Professor of Atmospheric Science, Director of the Earth System Science Center and State Climatologist working on Alabama's economic development.
I personally think that if scientist started to say that global warming were not an issue, most would be unemployed. Who wants to pay grants to study a non issue? It also appears that many private compaies profit from policies that are driven by the theory of global warming. How much does it cost to constantly upgrade AC&R equipment to use changing refrigerants. R-22 will be obsolete in the coming years requiring coolers be upgraded to yet a newer refrigerant.

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Midwest redneck

12-12-2007 17:00:52




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 Re: Oh yeah. in reply to Nebraska Cowman, 12-12-2007 16:10:53  
One more thing.....Wood pellets and Corn heat my home for most of the winter. Which is about 1/2 the cost of Propane. I make out cause it saves me money.



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bo

12-12-2007 16:56:30




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 Re: Save the world???? in reply to Nebraska Cowman, 12-12-2007 16:10:53  
Ethanol Fuel from Corn Faulted as ‘Unsustainable Subsidized Food Burning’
David Pimental, a leading Cornell University agricultural expert, has calculated that powering the average U.S. automobile for one year on ethanol (blended with gasoline) derived from corn would require 11 acres of farmland, the same space needed to grow a year's supply of food for seven people. Adding up the energy costs of corn production and its conversion into ethanol, 131,000 BTUs are needed to make one gallon of ethanol. One gallon of ethanol has an energy value of only 77,000 BTUS. Thus, 70 percent more energy is required to produce ethanol than the energy that actually is in it. Every time you make one gallon of ethanol, there is a net energy loss of 54,000 BTUs.

Mr. Pimentel concluded that "abusing our precious croplands to grow corn for an energy-inefficient process that yields low-grade automobile fuels amounts to unsustainable subsidized food burning".


----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- --

Neither increases in government subsidies to corn-based ethanol fuel nor hikes in the price of petroleum can overcome what Cornell University agricultural scientist, David Pimentel, calls a fundamental input-yield problem: It takes more energy to make ethanol from grain than the combustion of ethanol produces.

At a time when ethanol-gasoline mixtures (gasohol) are touted as the American answer to fossil fuel shortages by corn producers, food processors and some lawmakers, Cornell’s David Pimentel, one of the world’s leading experts in issues relating to energy and agriculture, takes a longer range view.

"Abusing our precious croplands to grow corn for an energy-inefficient process that yields low-grade automobile fuel amounts to unsustainable, subsidized food burning", says the Cornell professor in the College of Agriculture and Life Sciences. Pimentel, who chaired a U.S. Department of Energy panel that investigated the energetics, economics and environmental aspects of ethanol production several years ago, subsequently conducted a detailed analysis of the corn-to-car fuel process. His findings are published in the September, 2001 issue of the Encyclopedia of Physical Sciences and Technology .

Among his findings are:
An acre of U.S. corn yields about 7,110 pounds of corn for processing into 328 gallons of ethanol. But planting, growing and harvesting that much corn requires about 140 gallons of fossil fuels and costs $347 per acre, according to Pimentel’s analysis. Thus, even before corn is converted to ethanol, the feedstock costs $1.05 per gallon of ethanol. The energy economics get worse at the processing plants, where the grain is crushed and fermented. As many as three distillation steps are needed to separate the 8 percent ethanol from the 92 percent water. Additional treatment and energy are required to produce the 99.8 percent pure ethanol for mixing with gasoline. Adding up the energy costs of corn production and its conversion to ethanol, 131,000 BTUs are needed to make 1 gallon of ethanol. One gallon of ethanol has an energy value of only 77,000 BTU. "Put another way", Pimentel says, "about 70 percent more energy is required to produce ethanol than the energy that actually is in ethanol. Every time you make 1 gallon of ethanol, there is a net energy loss of 54,000 BTU". Ethanol from corn costs about $1.74 per gallon to produce, compared with about 95 cents to produce a gallon of gasoline. "That helps explain why fossil fuels-not ethanol-are used to produce ethanol", Pimentel says. "The growers and processors can’t afford to burn ethanol to make ethanol. U.S. drivers couldn’t afford it, either, if it weren’t for government subsidies to artificially lower the price". Most economic analyses of corn-to-ethanol production overlook the costs of environmental damages, which Pimentel says should add another 23 cents per gallon. "Corn production in the U.S. erodes soil about 12 times faster than the soil can be reformed, and irrigating corn mines groundwater 25 percent faster than the natural recharge rate of ground water. The environmental system in which corn is being produced is being rapidly degraded. Corn should not be considered a renewable resource for ethanol energy production, especially when human food is being converted into ethanol". The approximately $1 billion a year in current federal and state subsidies (mainly to large corporations) for ethanol production are not the only costs to consumers, the Cornell scientist observes. Subsidized corn results in higher prices for meat, milk and eggs because about 70 percent of corn grain is fed to livestock and poultry in the United States. Increasing ethanol production would further inflate corn prices, Pimentel says, noting: "In addition to paying tax dollars for ethanol subsidies, consumers would be paying significantly higher food prices in the marketplace". Nickels and dimes aside, some drivers still would rather see their cars fueled by farms in the Midwest than by oil wells in the Middle East, Pimentel acknowledges, so he calculated the amount of corn needed to power an automobile: The average U.S. automobile, traveling 10,000 miles a year on pure ethanol (not a gasoline-ethanol mix) would need about 852 gallons of the corn-based fuel. This would take 11 acres to grow, based on net ethanol production. This is the same amount of cropland required to feed seven Americans. If all the automobiles in the United States were fueled with 100 percent ethanol, a total of about 97 percent of U.S. land area would be needed to grow the corn feedstock. Corn would cover nearly the total land area of the United States.

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JMS/.MN

12-13-2007 08:29:57




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 Re: Save the world???? in reply to bo, 12-12-2007 16:56:30  
The "study" by Pimental and his buddy has been totally debunked. Both of them were oil company employees. No wonder it came out that way.



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Verniee

12-13-2007 08:47:31




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 Re: Save the world???? in reply to JMS/.MN, 12-13-2007 08:29:57  
They were " debunked " by organizations that disagreed with him. Big surprise.

Whenever someone disagrees with them, they always claim " big oil" is behind it. As though that is some sort of argument of any validity.



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IaGary

12-12-2007 17:15:01




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 Re: Save the world???? in reply to bo, 12-12-2007 16:56:30  
Where did Pimental get his production costs for 2001.

If my costs would have been $347 per acre I would have lost $100 for every acre I produced in 2001.

As you can see by my figures my cost today are only 90 gallon to produce not 140.

And fertilizer is 2 to 3 times as high today as in 2001.

Gas was 95 cents to produce in 2001 and I bet it is more than $2.00 today.

Pimental also used 126 bushel average for his figures andf the natiolnal average today is over 150.


David Pimental needs to update his figures.

Gary

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Don-Wi

12-13-2007 01:53:06




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 Re: Save the world???? in reply to IaGary, 12-12-2007 17:15:01  
Not to mention the average mileage he used for the average joe to drive 10,000 miles/year was 11.7 MPG!!!!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that doesn't sound like the average mileage to me, even if one were to burn 100% ethanol. My car gets between 21-27 MPG in every day driving, and my truck will get 13-18 MPG in the same conditions.

While yes my truck would probably fall into his "average" milage or slightly worse some of the time if it were to run on ethanol, I highly doubt my car's milage would be cut by over 50%. And my milage is about average for most cars on the road too.

Donovan from Wisconsin

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GeorgeH

12-12-2007 16:49:06




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 Re: Save the world???? in reply to Nebraska Cowman, 12-12-2007 16:10:53  
I think they are having global warming in Missouri and Arkansas.



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IaGary

12-12-2007 16:39:22




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 Re: Save the world???? in reply to Nebraska Cowman, 12-12-2007 16:10:53  
Cowman I have also thought about your last question and here are my figures.

We will put gallons in dollars per acre.

Fert $90

Fuel to plant and harvest and tend to $20.00

Fuel to produce and deleiver the seed $50.00

Fuel to dry $8.00

Herb. $25.00

Fuel to deleiver corn to ethanol plant $6.00

Total of $199.00 per acre for fuel if you figure all cost for seed, fertilizer and herb as fuel costs.

An acre of corn will produce 175 bushels here.

At 2.7 gallons of ethanol to a bushel of corn, that makes 472.5 gallon of ethanol at $3.00 a gallon equals $1417.50 worth of ethanol from an acre.

Nothing is figured for the heat to convert the 175 bushels to ethanol at the plant but I bet it ain't over $50.00 an acre. And to deliever to the gas tank is less than $25.00 an acre for a 500 mile trip by the tanker to your gas station.

Then you also have the byproduct for feed to market also.

Yes there is a positive return on gallons per acre for fuel usage verses return gallons per acre.

Prove me wrong.

Gary

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Nebraska Cowman

12-12-2007 16:54:01




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 Re: Save the world???? in reply to IaGary, 12-12-2007 16:39:22  
Oh I'm not here to fight with you Gary. Just asking questions. And we do not have to agree to be friends.



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IaGary

12-12-2007 17:01:59




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 Re: Save the world???? in reply to Nebraska Cowman, 12-12-2007 16:54:01  
Cowman the last comment was for other people who will be against the ethanol production.

Not directed towards you at all.

They keep coming out of the woods saying it is upside down but I can't see how.

Gary



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IaGary

12-12-2007 16:53:07




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 Re: Save the world???? in reply to IaGary, 12-12-2007 16:39:22  
Never answered your question cowman.

$270 ( 199 for my costs and 70 for processing and delivering the ethanol) cost divided by $3.00 per gallon equals 90 gallon of fuel to produce 472 gallons.

Gary



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Perplexed

12-12-2007 19:27:13




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 Re: Save the world???? in reply to IaGary, 12-12-2007 16:53:07  
I wish I could understand exactly what all the conflicting numbers mean, but here they are. Take them for what they are worth.

From USDA ethanol study:

Gallons produced from bushel of corn = 2.68
Feedstock cost = .80 gal
Credit from distillers grain - .25 gal ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----
Net cost of raw product = .55 gal

Ethanol plant operation cost + .95 gal
USDA producers payment + .35 gal
----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- Total production cost = 1.85 gal
Plus shipping costs + ?
(Average shipping distance is 93 miles by truck or 1163 miles by railroad to blending terminal.)

The rack price in Iowa 12-12-07 = 2.04 gal
Federal blenders credit - .51
----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- ----- Total market value = 1.53 gal

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Dave from MN

12-12-2007 16:32:25




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 Re: Save the world???? in reply to Nebraska Cowman, 12-12-2007 16:10:53  
I burn wood, so did my pa, my grand pa, and my greats grandpa's. Only reason I can see they would ban wood burning would be to eliminate competition for having to buy oil/gas. I beleive all this global warming stuff is more of a waste of $$ and a way to create a world wide panic so the powers that be can push their agenda's. Look how many millionaires are are quickly investing in "green" ventures and companies. I gotta stop or else I will start to go off on everything

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KRUSS1

12-12-2007 17:42:21




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 Re: Save the world???? in reply to Dave from MN, 12-12-2007 16:32:25  
My father, grandfather and so on burned wood, too. They also road in a horse and buggy. I'm not about to burn wood, cut wood, dump ashes or ride in a buggy. My home is very well insulated and heated with good old CHEAP RENEWABLE MANITOBA HYDRO ELECTRICITY. I live in SW Manitoba in an average sized home. Even in the coldest day in January the return from one hour's unskilled labour will much more than heat my house for a day.

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35A

12-12-2007 19:58:33




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 Re: Save the world???? in reply to KRUSS1, 12-12-2007 17:42:21  
Wish I had cheep Hydro. I can keep warm or eat, but I can't do both, SO, I cut wood & burn coal to keep warm. Screw AEP



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Don-Wi

12-13-2007 01:58:50




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 Re: Save the world???? in reply to 35A, 12-12-2007 19:58:33  
Our electric comes from hydro at the local municipality (Kaukauna Utilities). Helps keep our electric costs lower than our neighbors 1/8 mile away that are on WE Energies for their electricity.

Donovanf from Wisconsin



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