Welcome! Please use the navigational links to explore our website.
PartsASAP LogoCompany Logo Auction Link (800) 853-2651

Shop Now

   Allis Chalmers Case Farmall IH Ford 8N,9N,2N Ford
   Ferguson John Deere Massey Ferguson Minn. Moline Oliver

Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

academic: this won't fix your tractor (attn Bob@69.178.229.1

Welcome Guest, Log in or Register
Author 
JMOR

11-09-2007 05:59:32




Report to Moderator

Bob, you mentioned being alternator repair man in a recent post & sound pretty knowledgeable, so maybe you can answer a long standing question of mine. {Since it isn't going to fix anyone's problem & if smoked, the device can't readily (likely not at all) be fixed any way, if you deem responding a waste of your & other's time, I'll understand.}

The circuit diagram for the internals of the Regulator of the GM 10-SI: analysis would indicate that if the connection to TERM#2 were lost, then TR@ turns off, resulting in TR1 turning on, and the field receives full current, resulting in full alt output to Batt. (as in a VERY dead batt=zero volts).
Whereas, such an open Sense line connection actually results in NO output from alternator.
I suspect that this circuit representation is incomplete & for illustrative purposes only, but there could be more to it than that?
P.S. I have observed this on three different alts. & have not examined this on more, so I can't state that it is universal, but...

Do you know an explanation?

[Log in to Reply]   [No Email]
Walt Davies

11-09-2007 09:57:36




Report to Moderator
 Re: academic: this won't fix your tractor (attn Bob@69.178.2 in reply to JMOR, 11-09-2007 05:59:32  
Here is a real funny story about early alternators. I had a 61 Dodge and one morning it wouldn't start, nothing, nada not even a simple click so I took a look at the dash and noticed that the Amp meter was tilted over to the side, melted. I saw that the little needle was stuck to one side so I freed it up and Viola the dang thing Started right up. Well I took it to a dealer in town and they said the alternator was putting out 24 volts a new alternator and amp meter and it all worked again. Hey I swear this was true don't ask why but that darn thing would not start if the needle was stopped from moving freely.
Walt

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Bob

11-09-2007 21:14:12




Report to Moderator
 Re: academic: this won't fix your tractor (attn Bob@69.178.2 in reply to Walt Davies, 11-09-2007 09:57:36  
Viola = A little pansy-like flower:

Third Party Image

Voila = Some silly French word literally meaning “look there!”



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Janicholson

11-09-2007 12:24:08




Report to Moderator
 Re: academic: this won't fix your tractor (attn Bob@69.178.2 in reply to Walt Davies, 11-09-2007 09:57:36  
The meter was toast. It acted like a fuse and when it burnt in two the components were seperated by a few thousandths. when it was moved, the internals touched (probably welded together a bit) and it made it to town. I've seen it happen twice in like manor. JimN



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Wayne from MN

11-09-2007 09:41:11




Report to Moderator
 Re: academic: this won't fix your tractor (attn Bob@69.178.2 in reply to JMOR, 11-09-2007 05:59:32  
Why go to all that extra work when a GOOD alternator shop will get you a 1 wire unit? I have a couple 1 wire units and have not experienced any battery drain. Mind you, there are differing quality levels of product so you need to know what you are buying.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Gene-AL

11-09-2007 08:39:42




Report to Moderator
 Re: academic: this won't fix your tractor (attn Bob@69.178.2 in reply to JMOR, 11-09-2007 05:59:32  
JMOR,
Mind if I throw in my take...

The first transistor, with its base circuit connected to a zener diode and voltage divider to terminal #2, never turns on until the battery voltage rises to a voltage pre-determined by the resistor values in the voltage divider and the zener diode breakover 'on' voltage. The battery charging current is initially set by the two biasing resistors (and a forward-biased diode) in the second transistor's base circuit until the battery voltage at terminal #2 rises enough to turn on the first transistor.
Once the battery voltage at terminal #2 rises enough to switch on the zener diode at the base of the first transistor, its colector-emitter circuit robs (shunts) 'on' biasing current away from the second transistor base-emitter circuit, thus lowering the emitter-collector current through the 2nd transistor in series with the alternator field winding. Lowering the field current lowers the Alt. output voltage/current.

Leaving the #2 terminal disconnected does mean that the first transistor will never turn on and allows the alternator to full-charge continually, but the Alt. output current is still limited by the base-biasing circuits of the 2nd transistor, battery condition (internal resistance and state of charge) and the resistance of the Alt. stator windings (snd the alternator current rating).

The GM-type alternator works in much the same way as older generator charging systems - always on full-charge until rising battery voltage intervenes through some type of a voltage regulator.
The GM-type alternator will not start charging unless:
1) there is enough residual magnetism and rotational speed to generate enough voltage to turn on the second transistor in the VR and apply a small current through the field winding (as in one-wire Alt. setups), OR
2) Terminal #1 receives a start-up voltage/current, typically from the battery through a 'charge lamp', resistor, or diode, to initially furnish a small amount of power to the 2nd transistor in the VR and the Alt. field winding to get charging started. Once started, a 3-diode rectifier connected to the stator windings furnishes the power to the VR, and the start-up circuit becomes idle (charge lamp goes out).

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Janicholson

11-09-2007 12:35:23




Report to Moderator
 Re: academic: this won't fix your tractor (attn Bob@69.178.2 in reply to Gene-AL, 11-09-2007 08:39:42  
I'll add to this great discussion that the magnetic fields in the stator poles (being subject to reverse EMF from the current floeing in them) will repell the field rotors magnetism as the unit approaches maximum rated output. This self limiting component almost eliminates burnt stator windings. Most often failure is diode or shorts to other windings, or VR faults. JimN



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Bob

11-09-2007 07:23:40




Report to Moderator
 Re: academic: this won't fix your tractor (attn Bob@69.178.2 in reply to JMOR, 11-09-2007 05:59:32  
SOMEWHERE (after several moves), I have some original techschool GM material, with a full description of how these alternators operate. I need to try to find it, as I know the "loss of voltage feedbac scenario" was discussed in detail.

With the original GM regulators, they will "default" to charging about a Volt higher than normal, if the sense lead is lost, APPARENTLY there's more components than shown in the simplified functional schematic diagram, and there's a second voltage feedback source, apparently from the terminal fed by the diode trio.

With the replacment regulators that are around today, from the "land of almost right", I'm sure they are not exact copies of the originals, and may act differently when Voltage Sense is lost.

I still haven't run into any 10SI's that will STOP charging altogether when the "sense" connection is lost, though.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
JMOR

11-09-2007 15:52:37




Report to Moderator
 Re: academic: this won't fix your tractor (attn Bob@69.178.2 in reply to Bob, 11-09-2007 07:23:40  
Bob, your memory is darn good! Based on your recollections of how the Original GM design was supposed to work when Sense line lost and since the circuit as shown didn't support observed operation, I decided to carefully examine an old GM unit. Low & behold, there are extra resistors and interconnect and one unexplained terminal (connection pad) on the integrated circuit at the heart of the module. I was able to trace out the circuit as shown in the diagram and then I could identify the "extra stuff". By the use of needle probes, I was even able to verify that this unit's output power transistor is still functional, and the IC is receiving Sense input and that the D2 input will increase slightly when Excite voltage is added. Out of the 3 that I mentioned, I still have one, but it is on a working tractor, so good sense tells me to leave it alone & not disassemble to see if it has some after market regulator, which I would bet on.

I also attached an old add (for Ford SS Ign) that I was reminded of because of after-market/original parts....for your amusement.

If you ever run across the GM Training materials & if it shows the IC internals, I sure would appreciate seeing it.

Been an interesting thread. Thanks all.

And yes, it goes without saying...I have too much time on my hands! Which is also how I knew what the inside of a Ford SSIgn module looked like.

third party image

third party image

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Jon Hagen

11-09-2007 07:16:24




Report to Moderator
 Re: academic: this won't fix your tractor (attn Bob@69.178.2 in reply to JMOR, 11-09-2007 05:59:32  
Not Bob, but glad you brought this up. I have done my own alternator rebuilding including Delco 10-12SI for 30 + years and just last year noticed this oddity of the Delco regulators, both genuine Delco and aftermarket. If the regulator #2 terminal detects no sense voltage(broken or disconnected wire) The excite voltage from the #1 regulator wire will be blocked in the regulator and the alternator will not excite.

I don't think this was always the case, as Years earlier I found that loosing battery voltage to the #2 sense wire would cause the alternator to charge flat out, unregulated until it burned itself up.

I discovered this last summer after changing a starter on my 4020 gas tractor. That model has a weak starter and years earlier I added a 10SI Delco alternator with the sense wire routed all the way to the battery connection at the starter. I wanted to make sure that the regulator was seeing actual battery voltage and not inserting any voltage drop from the long output cable run so the already weak starter was not hampered by a less than fully charged battery. All was well with this setup until I replaced that starter this summer. The tractor started fine, but the GEN light would not come on when I turned on the ignition. I grounded the #1 wire at the alt plug and saw that the bulb / wiring was ok, but no light wnen plugged into the alternator. I thought, OK, bad regulator or brushes making an open circuit in the alternator.

I ran the alternator on my test stand and it worked !!??. Thought OK, I have a bad regulator that works on the test stand, but will not excite from that tiny gen light.
I replaced the regulator, verified it worked on the test stand and reinstalled it on the tractor.
Same problem, no gen light lit and no alternator output. Ready to pull out hair now, could I possibly have grabbed another 1 in a million bad regulator ???. I replaced the regulator again with the same result !!??. Then it struck me, I just replaced the starter, could I have missed reconnection a wire at the starter ?? I checked and yes, there was my alternator sense wire dangling behind the starter. Reconnected it and the alternator was back to perfect operation.(Blush) I spent a frustrating afternoon learning that atleast the newer spec Delco internal regulators will not excite the alternator until they see battery voltage at the #2 sense wire.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Bob

11-09-2007 07:29:51




Report to Moderator
 Re: academic: this won't fix your tractor (attn Bob@69.178.2 in reply to Jon Hagen, 11-09-2007 07:16:24  
Jon,

I'm sure it's safe to say the newer regulators, even if "genuine Delco" are coming from the "land of almost right", and their internals have very little in common with the original US-made OEM GM's.

The originals were SUPPOSED to default to a charging rate about a Volt higher than normal, and hold there, if "voltage Sense" should be lost.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
KEB

11-09-2007 07:09:48




Report to Moderator
 Re: academic: this won't fix your tractor (attn Bob@69.178.2 in reply to JMOR, 11-09-2007 05:59:32  
Post a copy of the internal schematic, or a link to where one can be found.

Keith



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Bob

11-09-2007 07:25:41




Report to Moderator
 Re: academic: this won't fix your tractor (attn Bob@69.178.2 in reply to KEB, 11-09-2007 07:09:48  
Simplified diagram:

Third Party Image



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
JMOR

11-09-2007 06:03:41




Report to Moderator
 Re: academic: this won't fix your tractor (attn Bob@69.178.2 in reply to JMOR, 11-09-2007 05:59:32  
No limitations here, I'll take facts from anyone!
:)



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
[Options]  [Printer Friendly]  [Posting Help]  [Return to Forum]   [Log in to Reply]

Hop to:


TRACTOR PARTS TRACTOR MANUALS
We sell tractor parts!  We have the parts you need to repair your tractor - the right parts. Our low prices and years of research make us your best choice when you need parts. Shop Online Today. [ About Us ]

Home  |  Forums


Copyright © 1997-2023 Yesterday's Tractor Co.

All Rights Reserved. Reproduction of any part of this website, including design and content, without written permission is strictly prohibited. Trade Marks and Trade Names contained and used in this Website are those of others, and are used in this Website in a descriptive sense to refer to the products of others. Use of this Web site constitutes acceptance of our User Agreement and Privacy Policy

TRADEMARK DISCLAIMER: Tradenames and Trademarks referred to within Yesterday's Tractor Co. products and within the Yesterday's Tractor Co. websites are the property of their respective trademark holders. None of these trademark holders are affiliated with Yesterday's Tractor Co., our products, or our website nor are we sponsored by them. John Deere and its logos are the registered trademarks of the John Deere Corporation. Agco, Agco Allis, White, Massey Ferguson and their logos are the registered trademarks of AGCO Corporation. Case, Case-IH, Farmall, International Harvester, New Holland and their logos are registered trademarks of CNH Global N.V.

Yesterday's Tractors - Antique Tractor Headquarters

Website Accessibility Policy