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Some one explain the hard pan to me.

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Dave from MN

10-17-2007 19:24:47

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OK, while digging holes for post. I decided to go in the feilds and make some holes to drop in RR ties for anchors in case I end up running electric fence to graze the cornstocks and ad a bit of mother natures fertilizer. I am sandier soils. The 1st 3"-6" were soft. Then the next 3"-8" where like freaking cement. I am assuming this is the "hard pan". Below this area the soil was soft and easy to excavate, but in some areas was a poor golden sand. Will this hardpan restrict root growth? I really do not want to moldboard plow it that deep for fear of burying the shallow good topsoil in places and displacing with that undesirable soil. I have access to a subsoiler and a big tractor. Would this break it up with out reducing the good topsoil? I would like to do it this fall ASAP, now that I discovered that hard pan, to (in my mind)allow the rain to "get down there for next year". Feilds have been farmed with big articulates and feild culivators for about 15 years. Need some experienced advice on this NRCS would like to see no till, but... whats best?? I'm clueless on this issue.

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BigMarv1085

10-19-2007 02:10:44

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Re: Some one explain the hard pan to me. in reply to Dave from MN, 10-17-2007 19:24:47

I have some ground that I just ran a disc over and the ground was so hard it just scratched the surface. Gotta wait on the rain now.

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higgins

10-18-2007 14:25:30

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Re: Some one explain the hard pan to me. in reply to Dave from MN, 10-17-2007 19:24:47

Do not molboard plow but do chisel or subsoil at least enough to see the effect. Do some research on soils in that area and maybe ask county extension agent if you have one. The soils scientists are starting to see that no-till can't work permanently because the residue is not degrading into the soil.

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Dave from MN

10-18-2007 14:35:02

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Re: Some one explain the hard pan to me. in reply to higgins, 10-18-2007 14:25:30

One particular feild has been no-tilled for 2 years, was also ran over with a BIG packer in spring of '06 to get the ruts flattened from a, during thaw, spring corn harvest. It is even planted with a large 4x4 articulate. The feild in the pic is not the feild in question, but the chisel vator is the peice I am considering using. I am gonna do some digging in the spring I think and see what the hard pan is like after thaw.

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Dave from MN

10-18-2007 09:25:02

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Re: Some one explain the hard pan to me. in reply to Dave from MN, 10-17-2007 19:24:47

I know when I was disking down the cornstalks there were places the disc would just float outa the ground, like I was going through 2-3" of soil on a concrete slad. These area's in particular really suffered from the drought this past summer and actually were in places with less sandier/ more fertile soil. My freind has a Duetz-allis "chiselvator" which is kind of chisel plow/ feild cultivator offspring. Would I be better off hitting it in the spring with this and maybe set it to go 8-9" deep, and stay above that soft sandbox sand? This tillage tool does leave a nice seedbed. I do plan on getting Alfalfa into my crop rotations.

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Allan In NE

10-18-2007 10:26:41

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Re: Some one explain the hard pan to me. in reply to Dave from MN, 10-18-2007 09:25:02

Wow!

Just going by your picture, I would't do a blessed thing to that soil. Let mother nature work her magic and then just do your planting in the spring.

What nice, rich looking soil!

Allan

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mark

10-18-2007 08:54:42

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Re: Some one explain the hard pan to me. in reply to Dave from MN, 10-17-2007 19:24:47

The way this Kentucky hillbilly has it figured is; any thing you can do to break the 'pan' is better than what you have. I don't own a bulldozer or a tractor capable of yanking a 3 shank subsoiler. But, I do own a single shank subsoiler and a tractor that can pull it. I can't see anything but beneficial results from subsoiling my ground. By all means do it when the earth is dry.....and with the drought we had this year...it was a perfect time to subsoil. Very little 'subsoil' is brought to the surface.....I don't know what the other fellow is referring to. BUT, the fracture effect of the compacted soil strata is terribly obvious! My subsoiler shank will penetrate about 18" to 24" and it will make my 60 horse 4 WD Deere grunt to pull it. You can see the ground swell and lift about 3 feet on each side of the shank slit! I also have a 4"-5" 'mole ball' trailing my subsoiler. I made it from a giant ball bearing I found. This mole ball..(some call it a cannon ball!) will leave...at least in theory..a tunnel for water drainage. I think it also helps fracture the lower soil strata, allowing for better root penetration. Compaction shouldn't be much of a factor if you are subsoiling DRY ground. Anybody with any sense at all, knows better than get in a wet field.

If the fall rains have set in where you are, it may be too late to subsoil your ground. I still think under the right conditions (dry) any subsoiling is better than no subsoiling.

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fixerupper

10-18-2007 07:21:16

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Re: Some one explain the hard pan to me. in reply to Dave from MN, 10-17-2007 19:24:47

In your light soil I don't think deep ripping will help you. The ripper shanks will just stir the soil instead of fracturing it. The frost should break up your shallow hard pan. The only place I've seen a visible change from deep ripping is in heavy black soil with low organic matter where the water wasn't getting through to the drainage tile. Around here some of the farmers don't even rip the light hilltops. Jim

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Jack a

10-18-2007 04:29:52

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Re: Some one explain the hard pan to me. in reply to Dave from MN, 10-17-2007 19:24:47

Had a large ripper run over our farm and to me it wasn't the thing to do. The soil on the hills got a lighter look to it. The ripper seemed to bring up dead soil and alot of clay. It was a big mistake in my view. It also brought up a whole lot of rocks like I've never seen before. The soil seems to have gotten harder since the farm has been rented out, I think due to the very large equipment being used and the excessive amount of fertilizer and chemicals being used. We never did things quite like that. We had decent crops but I got to say not like the crops that are coming off it now at an average 250 bu per acre corn and 60 or 65 bu per acre beans, some years even better. I still think our way was better for the soil cause I used to spread manure on the ground and raised corn, beans, oats, and alfalfa hay as a rotation. Now it's just corn and beans. Seem's to have alot more trouble with pests than I had. They seem to make alot more money too although that's because the prices have been better than I have ever seen in my life.

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Allan In NE

10-18-2007 07:13:04

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Re: Some one explain the hard pan to me. in reply to Jack a, 10-18-2007 04:29:52

Sure tend to agree with ya Jack.

Think the higher yeilds are from better seed genitics more than anything else and ask any one of 'em, they'll tell ya. The big boys aren't saving a dime by using the big toys. They're saving "time".

Also, I notice that now they just absolutely "have" to farm in the mud instead of waiting to do it right. Talk about building compaction!

Guess when ya farm all those acres to make all those equipment payments, afford the poison bill and/or pay those high leases, ya just gotta do things that way. :>)

Allan

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TWJanak

10-18-2007 04:53:16

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Re: Some one explain the hard pan to me. in reply to Jack a, 10-18-2007 04:29:52

Jack a said: (quoted from post at 04:29:52 10/18/07) Had a large ripper run over our farm and to me it wasn't the thing to do. The soil on the hills got a lighter look to it. The ripper seemed to bring up dead soil and alot of clay. It was a big mistake in my view. It also brought up a whole lot of rocks like I've never seen before. The soil seems to have gotten harder since the farm has been rented out, I think due to the very large equipment being used and the excessive amount of fertilizer and chemicals being used. We never did things quite like that. We had decent crops but I got to say not like the crops that are coming off it now at an average 250 bu per acre corn and 60 or 65 bu per acre beans, some years even better. I still think our way was better for the soil cause I used to spread manure on the ground and raised corn, beans, oats, and alfalfa hay as a rotation. Now it's just corn and beans. Seem's to have alot more trouble with pests than I had. They seem to make alot more money too although that's because the prices have been better than I have ever seen in my life.

Your way may be better, their way makes the most profit. In today's world you can't fault a farmer for wanting to do that.

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Jack a

10-18-2007 13:38:46

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Re: Some one explain the hard pan to me. in reply to TWJanak, 10-18-2007 04:53:16

True but it will bite us all in the end when there are only huge farms owned by Cargill and Hormel and our water must be bought cause the well is polluted.

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paul

10-17-2007 20:58:24

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Re: Some one explain the hard pan to me. in reply to Dave from MN, 10-17-2007 19:24:47

Plowing deeper only moves the plow pan deeper....

You want to rip it up with a ripper, DMI, chisel plow, whatevertheycallitinyourarea.

Forget about it this fall, way too much rain here now, you need to rip it when it is dry. _Don't_ do it when the ground is wet. Just don't.....

--->Paul

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kyhayman

10-17-2007 20:11:39

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Re: Some one explain the hard pan to me. in reply to Dave from MN, 10-17-2007 19:24:47

There are two different types of pans. A tillage pan and a fragipan. In your case, at this depth, I'd suspect a tillage pan caused by working the soil too wet at the depth of where the machinery ran. Normal freeze thaw should break up a tillage pan, but..... Subsoiling is an option. Make sure to pull at least 3 shanks, anyless actually creates more compaction than it helps. Ideally, rip, leave the cuts open all winter to the let water in and freezing break it up. I'm ripping some this fall, same situation. Using a 450C JD crawler and 3 shanks running 12 inches.

A fragipan is a different type of condition. Its caused by a mixture of sand and clay which forms a particular particle structure. Makes a layer almost like concrete and almost impossible to correct perminantly. I broke up a few 20 years ago with 3 shanks on a D7. Usually find these down about 18 inches. These want to reform, tillage pans dont. Esp if you can rip and then notill. Only way I know to keep a fragipan open is to inject organic matter into the cuts.

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doug il illinois

10-17-2007 20:10:34

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Re: Some one explain the hard pan to me. in reply to Dave from MN, 10-17-2007 19:24:47

I don't claim to be an authority on this, but if 3 to 6 inches was mellow, then got hard above the underlying sand layer, does sound like a compaction issue. Assume has likely been conventional tilled, 20 inch disk blade buried clear to the hub would likely yield 6 inches. 20 divided by 2 equals 10, less the hub diameter of 4 divided by 2 equals 8. Never able to go clear to hub, so 3 to 6 sounds right. Now, as to busting the hardpan, my opinion is to rip to about 12 to 15 inches. Will take some power, but souds like you have access. My opinion would also be to plant a legume, such as clover or alfalfa, after ripping in order to get below the hardpan with roots and also to set nitrogen deep. I am sure you will get better advice than mine later. DOUG

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steveormary

10-18-2007 14:08:40

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Re: Some one explain the hard pan to me. in reply to doug il illinois, 10-17-2007 20:10:34

Dave;

Hardpan is a soil condition that will cause your tractor to stop dead in its tracks and leave the wheels spinning.

steveormary

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