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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

red diesel in a pickup

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RLH

10-08-2007 18:38:11




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Is it true a mechanic can get a reward for turning some one in for having red fuel in a pickup




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bm3501466

10-16-2007 15:32:31




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 Re: red diesel in a pickup in reply to RLH, 10-08-2007 18:38:11  
Why can"t we turn in everyone for running those electric hybrid cars? If I have to pay tax on diesel fuel or vegetable oil, why don"t those tree huggers with the Prius"s have to pay road tax when their car is in electric mode.



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john *.?-!.* cub owner

10-12-2007 19:10:13




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 Re: red diesel in a pickup in reply to Clint Youse MO, 10-08-2007 18:38:11  

farmer boy said: (quoted from post at 13:48:08 10/12/07) WE ain't talking about theft from an individual.The taxes are a bunch of sh*t that the government came up to steal more from the people.
and to maintain roads



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buickanddeere

10-09-2007 23:28:37




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 Re: red diesel in a pickup in reply to RLH, 10-08-2007 18:38:11  
Running off road fuel is the only way 95% of diesel pickup owners ever have a hope of saving enough in fuel costs to pay for the diesel option.



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WantACaseLASomeday

10-09-2007 20:38:59




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 Re: red diesel in a pickup in reply to Jimmy King, 10-08-2007 18:38:11  
That is a terrific question. Wondering about the answer...



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Lanse

10-09-2007 16:39:12




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 Re: red diesel in a pickup in reply to RLH, 10-08-2007 18:38:11  
Its probabally illegal, but I would never rat out a customer in omst cases. If some hardworking farmer shows up with a tankful, I would just bring it up and let him know its illegal. He'd probabally fill er up with on road next time, but if his margins are so tight he has to use the red stuff, so be it. If he needs to do that allready, he doesnt need any more trouble. But if someone shows up in a pure black truck with flames and chrome stacks blowing black smoke, and 30" rims and a tankful, and clothes that cost more then an old tractor, I'd call the cops.

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Ryan - WI

10-09-2007 16:55:36




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 Re: red diesel in a pickup in reply to Lanse, 10-09-2007 16:39:12  
So poorer people are allowed to break the law... duly noted. At which income level would it be ok for me to steal your Kubota?



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farmer boy

10-12-2007 11:48:08




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 Re: red diesel in a pickup in reply to Ryan - WI, 10-09-2007 16:55:36  
WE ain't talking about theft from an individual.The taxes are a bunch of sh*t that the government came up to steal more from the people.



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Ryan - WI

10-09-2007 15:46:21




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 Re: red diesel in a pickup in reply to RLH, 10-08-2007 18:38:11  
I find it quite ironic that people are saying that you shouldn't turn in someone using illegal fuel. I pay my portion of the road taxes every time I fill up. Is there any good reason that I should be expected to pay your share as well?



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Leland

10-09-2007 15:20:12




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 Re: red diesel in a pickup in reply to RLH, 10-08-2007 18:38:11  
The ILL state police have been dipping tanks since the late 80's for off road fuel .



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JBMac

10-09-2007 12:29:27




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 Re: red diesel in a pickup in reply to RLH, 10-08-2007 18:38:11  
Put some bleach in the tank and it will take the red dye out and turn it clear. Truck won't run for long but the IRS won't fine you.



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soundguy

10-09-2007 10:25:42




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 Re: red diesel in a pickup in reply to RLH, 10-08-2007 18:38:11  
An IRS fuel compliance officer comes by now and then and sticks all our vehicles that have tags.. we have trucks that have no tags ( for on the job.. but not onthe road ) and the CO never sticks them.. or any of the heavy equipment or tractors.

Only once have we ever had something fial, and it was an 'emergency' case where an employee got stranded out on a job and put in a few gallons of red fuel to get to a service station where he filed up with clear deisel then went about his business. later that week we all got dipped... his showed just barely some visible dye.

Got the usualy 1000$ fine letter in the mail but he was able to get out of it that one time by writing a letter of explanation .. etc. We also keep detailed fuel logs and did show where 2g of diesel was pulled from the tank, as the employee even filled out the fuel usage in the remarks / explanation column as emergency fuel for his stranded truck. Those fuel logs got him off for something like a 25$ administrative fee, and a warning that if it happened again he would be treated as a 2nd offender.. etc.

Soundguy

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Billy NY

10-09-2007 09:40:53




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 Re: red diesel in a pickup in reply to RLH, 10-08-2007 18:38:11  
10 years ago when the town illegally condemned our old victorian style farm house, their demo contractor was using off road fuel in the trucks, besides calling O.S.H.A., (cited for an unsafe worksite), Dept of Environmental Conservation, (cited for a spill), hydraulic oil leaked from their excavator like a seive, I also had a friend in the fuel business, who knew the local state fuel tax person quite well, so I made sure he was aware of what this contractor was doing with off road fuel, well they actually kind of knew already as I recall, told me they were investigating him already, so I just kind of reinforced the issue. There was also an old 250 gallon fuel tank in the basement which I made sure was included to be known, he was going to crush it up, this guy literally wished he never stepped foot on our place, I made sure of that at every juncture because of what was being done by the town.

Different kind of situation but I can tell you they will show up or take anonymous tips about people using off road fuel in trucks in NY. I don't regret doing what I did either, they railroaded us illegally, we fought back and won an injunction, and I made double sure to take it one step further and hammer the contractor as well, remember; "Don't Tread on Me" ? They went just a little too far that day.

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JDknut

10-09-2007 08:57:03




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 Re: red diesel in a pickup in reply to RLH, 10-08-2007 18:38:11  
It would take a pretty rotten scum-maggot to rat someone out like that. Especially to rat out a poor hard working farmer or working stiff.



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Jeff-oh

10-09-2007 08:24:04




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 Re: red diesel in a pickup in reply to RLH, 10-08-2007 18:38:11  
I have a fried who is a retired IRS field agent. He would go to construction and work sites and dip the tanks. Write fines, and file the paperwork.



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jdemaris

10-09-2007 06:41:07




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 Chevy dealer told to report in reply to RLH, 10-08-2007 18:38:11  
If so, it is a state or county thing - and not Federal. There is certainly no such thing here in New York. A farmer-friend had a funny thing happen last year. He runs farm fuel in his trucks and claims he has the right since he uses agriculure plates (I think he's wrong). He'd been using dyed fuel in his 95 Dodge Cummins for years with no problems. Then, he bought a new Chevy Duramax. First day he got it home - he filled it with farm fuel - and as soon as he did it - it would not go any faster than 15- 20 MPH. It went into some sort of computerized "limp mode." So, he drove to the local Chevy dealer and starting screaming at the salesman about the new, over $40,000 crappy truck. Well, the salesman took him aside and told him that the Duramax has a sensor that does not allow certain fuels - and thus the limp-mode. The Chevy guys are supposed to report this - in order to void the warranty. So, all was kept quiet - and my friend no longer uses dyed fuel in his Duramax. He also lets it sit home at lot, and uses his older Dodge Cummins instead.

Awhile back - during hurricane Katrina - George Bush announced that Louisana residents were allowed to used dyed diesel for highway use, due to a fuel shortage. I wonder how that all worked out?

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Bayou Dave

10-09-2007 16:16:50




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 Re: Chevy dealer told to report in reply to jdemaris, 10-09-2007 06:41:07  
After Katrina there was a hand written note on the diesel pumps stating that it had dyed fuel. I ran it for about a month, then the little hand written note came off the pump, and it was business as usual. This was in South Louisiana.



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Tradititonal Farmer

10-09-2007 08:50:39




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 Re: Chevy dealer told to report in reply to jdemaris, 10-09-2007 06:41:07  
Your friend is wrong any vehicle that was built to be run on the road has to use the taxed fuel
even if it used off the road with no tags.If you can prove it is used off the road you can apply for a refund on the road tax.



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jdemaris

10-09-2007 09:08:40




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 Re: Chevy dealer told to report in reply to Tradititonal Farmer, 10-09-2007 08:50:39  
Yeah - as far as I know he"s wrong. I gave up arguing with him, though. But - what you just stated is not entirely true - at least not here where I live in New York. If you have dyed fuel - you can certainly use it legally for any off-road use and not have to worry about the added public-highway tax. Same thing goes from what I"ve seen in Michigan. They sell off-road diesel right at the pump. I filled my truck by accident with the stuff. The issue is - driving on a public highway. Even if you"re using vegetable oil with a diesel on the public highway - most states require the tax be paid - but the Feds do not. Here in New York - the off-road fuel just changed. We can no longer buy red high-sulfur fuel for farm use. It now can only be bought for heating oil. Farm fuel now is a new color and has some sulfur removed. We are, however, allowed to still use the red fuel for farm use until it"s gone. That can be for a tractor, or truck. The new farm fuel is still dyed, and still does not have highway tax added - and still can be used in any diesel vehicle that"s on private property.

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Tradititonal Farmer

10-09-2007 13:57:56




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 Re: Chevy dealer told to report in reply to jdemaris, 10-09-2007 09:08:40  
The Federal IRS fuel tester came on a dirt hauling job not far from me and gave two tickets to two trucks with no tags hauling dirt on site.



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jdemaris

10-09-2007 15:24:21




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 Re: Chevy dealer told to report in reply to Tradititonal Farmer, 10-09-2007 13:57:56  
Tickets for breaking what specific law?

Dyed fuel can still be used in cars and trucks if off road - as long as there were not designed for low-sulfur only (like some new ones) and you have the correct dyed fuel.


As I stated previously - there are two types of dyed diesel now - and only one is being allowed to be sold for use in off-road use. This took place in June of this year. Before that - the red dyed "heating oil" could be used in cars, trucks, tractors, etc. if not on a public highway - with one exception. It was NOT allowed to be used in a newer diesel that was designed for ultra-low sulfur fuel only. Now, one dyed fuel is for heating oil only - and an other lower-sulfur dyed fuel is allowed for off-road heavy equipment, cars, trucks, tractors, etc.

Here's some of the data from the Feds:

From June 1, 2007 through September 30, 2010: "High Sulfur Dyed Non-road, Locomotive,
or Marine Engine Diesel fuel-sulfur content may exceed 500 ppm sulfur. Not for use in highway
vehicles or engines. Not for use in any non-road engines requiring Ultra-Low Sulfur Diesel Fuel

For heating oil produced or imported beginning June 1, 2007: "Heating Oil. Not for use in
highway vehicles or engines or nonroad, locomotive, or marine engines."

EPA does not regulate the sulfur content of heating oil. However, with the exception of areas of
the Northeast and Mid- Atlantic regions of the U.S. and Alaska, all heating oil will contain a
marker (solvent yellow 124) to insure that it does not get diverted to the off-road pool of fuel.
Thus, marketers will have to take care to segregate heating oil from non-road fuel in storage,
transportation, etc

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Tradititonal Farmer

10-09-2007 17:36:05




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 Re: Chevy dealer told to report in reply to jdemaris, 10-09-2007 15:24:21  
The law is if a vehicle was a on road type vehicle (truck car etc) then its not supposed to ever run off road or red diesel in it.At least that is what the guy that got the tickets was told.



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RLH

10-09-2007 02:10:38




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 Re: red diesel in a pickup in reply to RLH, 10-08-2007 18:38:11  
im not a mechanic a friend told me this and I wondered if it was true



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Don-Wi

10-08-2007 23:31:18




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 Re: red diesel in a pickup in reply to RLH, 10-08-2007 18:38:11  
Do it to the wrong guy and he can run your business under for doing somehting like that. A big shop or a big dealer may survive, but a small shop would be signing their own death sentence by turning in the guy.

Donovan from Wisconsin



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kyhayman

10-08-2007 20:22:02




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 Re: red diesel in a pickup in reply to RLH, 10-08-2007 18:38:11  
Heard around here that reward is noramlly accompanied by random lightning stikes to places of business on clear nights or acute lead toxicity. Seriously, no matter what the reward is, it cant be worth the amount of grief that it could bring you.



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Allan In NE

10-08-2007 20:18:55




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 Re: red diesel in a pickup in reply to RLH, 10-08-2007 18:38:11  

Whoever told you that nonsense?

Allan



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RobMD

10-08-2007 20:12:01




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 Re: red diesel in a pickup in reply to RLH, 10-08-2007 18:38:11  
True, but it is also true that a mechanic can lose business and a possible reputation.



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jhill52

10-08-2007 19:58:57




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 Re: red diesel in a pickup in reply to RLH, 10-08-2007 18:38:11  
The fine for getting caught is $10,000.



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MN Scott

10-08-2007 20:58:03




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 Re: red diesel in a pickup in reply to jhill52, 10-08-2007 19:58:57  
First offense untaxed dyed fuel in a on road motor vehical is $1000 fine from Uncle Sam/IRS and $1000 from Uncle Gopher here in MN. Add them together and you have a total of $2000. MN State Revenue sets up check points almost weeklly here in town. I asked the guy once if they ever catch anyone, he said at least two a day somtimes several more. It would take a lotta fuel to pay the fines if you get caught.

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Ry

10-08-2007 19:41:54




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 Re: red diesel in a pickup in reply to RLH, 10-08-2007 18:38:11  
If red diesel shows up in my shop I will pretend not to notice. Telling on customers is probably bad for business in a small town. Just be shure to use only Ultra Low Sulfer fuel in your late model engines. Particularly any Ford with a 6.0 or 6.4. Or any diesel engine with a particulate filter in the exhaust. I see a lot of trouble with dirty fuel from a supplier in a nieghboring town. Lots of plugged filters and failed injectors with his customers. One guys pickup fuel tank had about 3 gallons of water in the bottom of it! Talked to the fuel dealer confidentially. He says he has no problem with his fuel. Funny thing - about a month later his own truck comes into the shop running bad. Yea his filters where plugged with rust and water in the tank! And he ruined 4 of his own injectors. I do not think he learned his lesson yet though. Be careful out there guys! And watch your filters!

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john in la

10-08-2007 19:41:29




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 Re: red diesel in a pickup in reply to RLH, 10-08-2007 18:38:11  
WHY????? ?
You thinking about turning someone in.

I do not know about a reward; but he sure would get you in more trouble than you ever wanted.



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iowa_tire_guy

10-08-2007 19:04:05




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 Re: red diesel in a pickup in reply to RLH, 10-08-2007 18:38:11  
Running dyed fuel that has not been road taxed is an IRS issue and we all know how easy going and soft hearted they are. Probably make you say your sorry and promise not to do it again. :-)



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bill mar

10-09-2007 14:51:35




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 Re: red diesel in a pickup in reply to iowa_tire_guy, 10-08-2007 19:04:05  
is it not also an enviornmental issue?



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low budget

10-09-2007 15:59:15




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 Re: red diesel in a pickup in reply to bill mar, 10-09-2007 14:51:35  
The sulfer content is the environmental issue. The dye is a tax issue. Everything is going to low sulfer, heating oil will get there too I'm sure. The Feds and state want their road tax.



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LenND

10-08-2007 18:43:28




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 Re: red diesel in a pickup in reply to RLH, 10-08-2007 18:38:11  
I guess we better watch who we have for mechanics but then it is illegal to run it in anything that isn't off road equipment. I believe.



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Lanse

10-08-2007 18:43:04




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 Re: red diesel in a pickup in reply to RLH, 10-08-2007 18:38:11  
PLEASE!!! I HAVE FINANTIAL OBLIGATIONS!!!

Gee, I dunno. Uncle in NY says they are VERY strict up there, he thinks even a short jail sentence, but thats just what someone told em'. I dont think I would rat out my customers :-)



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