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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

O.T.-----battery voltage control

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farmerjohninpa

07-10-2007 22:13:43




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hello all; i know there are a few people on here that seem to have a degree in electrical eng. a battery is a box that holds lead plates,acid, etc. my question is how is the voltage held at a preset rating? ie.6v--8v--12v--24v-- etc. i understand that the battery is broken into "cells" that are grouped toghter, but how does each cell maintain its voltage? is it something to do with the lead plate surface area in the acid solution ? and is there a formula to figure this out?

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Gerald J.

07-11-2007 08:18:42




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 Re: O.T.-----battery voltage control in reply to farmerjohninpa, 07-10-2007 22:13:43  
The precise cell voltage is a function of temperature and the full charge specific gravity of the electrolyte. Using a standard temperature of 68 degrees F is common. Most starting batteries use a full charge SG off 1.280, often expressed as 1280. That gets a full charge or float voltage of 2.36 volts per cell.

A deep cycle battery may use a SG of 1.260 or lower for longer life and will have a lower full charge voltage. Probably 2.30 volts per cell.

The full charge voltage is the maximum voltage that if the battery terminals are held to that voltage, the charging current will taper to zero. Any higher voltage doesn't increase the stored energy but dissociates more water that requires replacement.

I'm sure web pages from battery makers may occasionally give details of float voltages vs SG, or a vintage battery text book such as the ones by Veniot (IIRC) that might be on my library shelf but that's not handy to this computer.

Gerald J.

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KEB

07-11-2007 07:17:02




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 Re: O.T.-----battery voltage control in reply to farmerjohninpa, 07-10-2007 22:13:43  
Different battery voltages are achieved by stacking a number of cells in series. The individual cell voltage is a function of the chemistry, i.e, the interaction between lead and sulfuric acid when a current is passed through it (i.e, charged) results in an accumulation of ions with a potential of a little over 2 volts. In a standard flashlight cell, the potential difference resulting from the chemical reaction is about 1.5 volts, and in a NiCad battery its about 1.2 volts.

On a lead acid battery, each cell is in its own compartment, and can be thought of as a separate battery. In a six volt battery, there are three cells packaged in a single box. In a 12 volt battery, there are six. In another example, I can put two six volt batteries in series and have 12 volts - in this case, there are still six cells but they"re divided between two separate cases.

The available current is mostly a function of how fast the chemical reaction inside the battery can take place. In the case of lead-acid batteries, this is determined by the surface are of the plates in the individual cells. More plates, or bigger plates, result in more surface area and therefore more available current.

Hope this helps.

Keith

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vitzarus

07-10-2007 22:51:28




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 Re: O.T.-----battery voltage control in reply to farmerjohninpa, 07-10-2007 22:13:43  
Yes when you are talking lead-acid batteries there is a certain ratio between cells. Things to look for. Really large batteries have lead or other strings across the cells from one to another where you can compare individual cells to see how they accept charge and specific gravity Then there were these huge clear cell batteries. This allows the tech to observe the actual plate condition and the reactance of one in a string of itself and that compared to many more. There were many things to look for.This is all past. You can inspect the specific gravity of each cell and make sure you use distilled water and little else but good connections.

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doogdoog

07-11-2007 10:54:59




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 Re: O.T.-----battery voltage control in reply to vitzarus, 07-10-2007 22:51:28  
Aloha, We had to do some routines on our 48v batt's like, temperature, electrolyte level, etc. If I remember correctly, some batt's had a layer of oil on the top, probably to control evaporation (not sure).

Mahalo,
doogdoog



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Bob

07-10-2007 22:25:43




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 Re: O.T.-----battery voltage control in reply to farmerjohninpa, 07-10-2007 22:13:43  
Each battery "chemistry"... lead/acid, carbon/zinc, ni-cad, etc., has it's own specific "cell voltage, determined by the "chemistry" used, NOT the SIZE of each cell.



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RAB

07-10-2007 23:06:33




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 Re: O.T.-----battery voltage control in reply to Bob, 07-10-2007 22:25:43  
Bob is right. You would need a degree in chemistry to start to figure out the calculations as to why each different type of cell has that particular voltage. All to do with electron energy levels, nucleus charge, electron cloud screening and a host of others..... .. Just suffice it to say that a lead acid cell has a voltage of approx 2 - so six cells will always make a 12volt battery - and nicads have a voltage of about 1.2 so 10 cells would be needed to make a 12volt battery, and so on.
Regards, RAB

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HENRY E NC

07-11-2007 05:44:53




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 Re: O.T.-----battery voltage control in reply to RAB, 07-10-2007 23:06:33  
Yall are missing the boat on batteries. The above answers are rightfor several different batteries but todays new battery technology is even better.I have learned about batteries thru study for application abd if we would use AGM batteries most of our worries would be solved. IN these batteries (used by the military) the electrolite is absorbed into a fiberglass matting and wound around a conductor and then charged. Theere is no sluffing because plates are not used. These batteries can sit long periods of time discharged and not be harmed. The charge loss is less than 1% per month and they will last a lifetime if properly cared for.

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KEB

07-11-2007 07:26:53




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 Re: O.T.-----battery voltage control in reply to HENRY E NC, 07-11-2007 05:44:53  
Henry,

An AGM battery is still just a lead-acid battery as far as the chemistry is concerned. The only difference is in the way its packaged. By having the electrolyte (acid) asorbed into a mat you avoid the problems of a highly corrosive liquid sloshing around and some mechanical issues associated with the plates vibrating. I suspect that's why the military likes them.

From what I've seen, Optima is much better at advertising than they are at building batteries. AGM batteries have their place, such as in military vehicles, but they're certainly not a panacea for all applications. Like any other lead-acid battery, they will eventually fail.

Keith

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Jon Hagen

07-11-2007 10:31:58




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 Re: O.T.-----battery voltage control in reply to KEB, 07-11-2007 07:26:53  
Got to argue a bit with you on the spiral cell design AGM battery, they are not perfect,but head and shoulders above the conventional flooded cell battery for most applications. Rolling a single pos plate/agm seperator and neg plate into a tightly wound package eliminates most of the vibration/ plate material sluffing and swell/shrink warp damage of the normal charge discharge cycle that eventually destroys the flooded plate design. The many short plate connectors used with the spiral design are much tougher and conduct more power than the single end connector of a conventional design,so short duration output is better than the spiral cells CCA numbers would indicate. (Personal experience with a diesel combine and several large diesel tractors is that is that they crank stronger and recharge faster with a pair of group 24 Exide orbital AGMs than they ever did with the pair of group 31 flooded batterys, even though the spiral AGMs have a 800 CCA rating while the group 31's were rated at 1000 CCA.)

The sealed design eliminates corrosion on and around the battery. The plate alloy used allows the battery to have a very slow discharge rate.

The only thing I have seen that will do them in is a defective charging system or an idiot with an unregulated fast charger who boils the electrolyte out of them.
I have several of ths spiral cell Optima batterys in constant use,with the oldest being 16 years old and still cranks like new. It has never had any special care and has been totally discharged at least a half dozen times. Recharging a spiral AGM in that condition consisted of "junp" starting the machine and allowing the 60+ amp alternator to hammer a charge back into the poor dead thing, it still works like new.
I also have another half dozen or so of the Exide "orbital power" spiral cell AGM batterys in various pieces of equipment where they have been as reliable and maintenence free as the Optima brand for 40% less money, although the oldest of those are only 10 years old. They are a pleasure in seasonal use equipment like combines and tractors where you can be assured that the machine will start after many months of non use and nothing related to the battery will be corroded. Connecting a float charger every 2 months will usually take 1/2-1 hour or more for the charger to switch from charge to float with a flooded cell battery, while the lower self discharge of the spiral AGM usually switches off in 5-10 min.

For a cranking/lighting/ignition application they are hard to beat, almost an install it and forget it for the life of the machine type of deal.

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RAB

07-11-2007 06:40:08




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 Re: O.T.-----battery voltage control in reply to HENRY E NC, 07-11-2007 05:44:53  
Henri,
Just not true - unless you mean when the battery is dead, that's the end of it's life! You can, of course, buy the normal flooded plate battery or the absorbed gel mat electrolyte type or the gel electrolyte type. They are all available. Add to that the choice of automotive, leisure, traction, stand-by and deep discharge (in marine and normal format) and you have a wide range of choice. If cost matters the cost efficient ones for that duty are purchased or often the cheapest. If cranking amps are most important you have the choices of a small(?) lead (plus other metals) sponge plate battery or a very much larger battery if it is a deep discharge type with solid pure lead plates, and others in between those extremes.

The newer technology is certainly there. It just doesn't necessarily fit with practicality. Like charging rates are restricted, discharge rates are more tightly controlled for long life. Cycle efficiency (how much energy you have to put in for a given amount taken out) may be different.
Perhaps everyone should be buying the Optima batteries but I doubt they will - just because of the price (they do automotive and deep discharge varieties) and life expectancy is not for the purchaser's lifetime. I, for one, look at the specifications and I have yet to see an ideal battery for any high power situation. 'Ideal' meaning it will fit all the required citeria and last indefinitely. It is all a compromise.

AND it doesn't make one jot of difference to the poster's question. The cell voltage is determined by the chemical reactions in the cell. BTW, I don't think Bob is missing the boat either.
RAB

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