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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

O/T: Using a trash pump on a firefighting rig?

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Blue3992 (N Ill

05-04-2007 19:11:41




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I've got a 300-gallon water tank on an old trailer. I was thinking of putting a gas-powered water pump on it so I could use it around the farm for putting out fires. Nothing too serious, just something to have on hand during bonfires, as well as some cheap insurance in case there was ever a grass fire.

For my water pump, I was thinking of getting an older “trash pump” because it looks like I can pick one up relatively cheaply on Ebay. 5 or 6 HP, 2-inch inlet and outlet. I figure I’d use 1-inch hose on the outlet with a nozzle to control the flow.

Some things I'm wondering though:

Will I be able to get enough pressure out of a trash pump to make this work? From looking through catalogs, I get the impression that trash pumps are meant for high volume, low-pressure operations. With a nozzle on the end, is there going to be enough pressure to throw the water a decent distance?

Also, since there's a nozzle on the end of the hose that would be turned on and off, there's going to be some backpressure on the pump. Will this affect the pump? Since trash pumps are designed for more or less continuous operation, am I liable to screw-up the pump turning the nozzle on and off?

A picture of a pump I was looking at:

third party image

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NE IA Dave

05-05-2007 22:52:42




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 Re: O/T: Using a trash pump on a firefighting rig? in reply to Blue3992 (N Illinois), 05-04-2007 19:11:41  
It's like taking a wiss in the ocean, but it still helps. Most fire nozzles operate at 100 psi. Probably 50 GPM is decent. A ball park number is a 2 1/2 in hose will put out five times as much water as a 1 1/2 inch hose. All that being said a good rule of thumb is a fire doubles every munite, so it simply has to help. If you have any questions go visit your local fire department. Most of those folks will help you out, maybe even give you some old hose and a nozzle, mose departments have a bunch laying around. Maybe they might be up steping a pump that they may make you a deal on. I could go on and on, but if you are alone dragging hose any distance, you may want to consider forestry hose, it's smaller, but a whole lot less problem to drag around.

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Glen in TX

05-05-2007 10:02:20




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 Re: O/T: Using a trash pump on a firefighting rig? in reply to Blue3992 (N Illinois), 05-04-2007 19:11:41  
Found the other bookmarks so to compare for real fire pumps see these. As far as a fire nozzle plugging most all adjustable type can be turned to flush. You need a screen on suction end so not pulling large stuff in pump anyway.

haleproducts.com
gormanrupp.com
waterousco.com



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135 Fan

05-05-2007 09:40:05




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 Re: O/T: Using a trash pump on a firefighting rig? in reply to Blue3992 (N Illinois), 05-04-2007 19:11:41  
Why do you need a trash pump? Any centrifugal pump would work. Trash pumps have very open impellers to allow solid objects to go through. Pressure pumps on the other hand have closed impellers which cause higher pressure. Fire fighting pumps consist of 2 or more closed impellers to increase pressure even more. Just like a 2 stage air compressor. A standard pump like a basic Honda or similar is kind of in between a trash pump and a pressure pump. More pressure equals less flow. A pressure pump would shoot the water further but with a nozzle on a standard pump it would still shoot the water a fair distance. Make sure to use a strainer so you don't get trash in your pump. Most strainers that come with pumps are sized so they will only let through what the pump will pump. Putting a window screen on the strainer helps also. Especially when using a nozzle or a smaller outlet to get some back pressure for spraying. A tapered nozzle works better than an adjustable fire nozzle and doesn't get plugged up if a little dirt gets sucked in the pump. A pump that says high head is the same as more pressure. Look under pumps on the web. It will explain it. Hope this helps. Dave

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Blue3992 (N Illinois)

05-05-2007 11:17:53




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 Re: O/T: Using a trash pump on a firefighting rig? in reply to 135 Fan, 05-05-2007 09:40:05  
I was looking at using a trash pump to save money. It seesm like there's a lot of them out there on EBay and Craigslist for relatively cheap.

Have you got any good places to look for more suitable pumps that are still relatively inexpensive? I tried a couple different keyword searches on EBay, but the best I could find were the used trash pumps. I did find some new pumps specially designed for use on firefighting equipment, but they were really expenisve.

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Steve A W

05-05-2007 09:26:06




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 Re: O/T: Using a trash pump on a firefighting rig? in reply to Blue3992 (N Illinois), 05-04-2007 19:11:41  
When I first got into the fire service our Brush rig was a 1953 Dodge M37, with a 275 gallon oil tank, a 10 or 11 hp trash pump and 2 hose reels of 3/4 inch garden hose. We put out a lot fire with this rig.



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RodInNS

05-05-2007 06:26:06




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 Re: O/T: Using a trash pump on a firefighting rig? in reply to Blue3992 (N Illinois), 05-04-2007 19:11:41  
The short answer is yes, a trash pump will do what you want. We use them to some degree on our department if the need arises. They're not going to make much pressure, but they will move and dump a pile of water on a fire with a decent stream.
Restrictions aren't good for any pump. The problem is simply in a lack of circulation. No circulation, and in fairly short order they will boil the water in their pump housings, and then things get cooked... so you don't restrict trash pumps or fire pumps for any more than a minute or two.
One thing you might watch for, if you want a small fire pump, is something like a Wajax fire/forestry pump. We use the older Mark III's, which are decent little pumps. They only move mabey a hundred GPM on a 1.5" line, but that's plenty fo most small grass fires. These are a pressure pump.... Their only downfall is that they can be a good deal more contankerous than a Honda trash pump.... but they will do work that the trash pump won't do.
There's alos old fire pumps out there like Hale and Thibault/Pierreville portables, but they can run you a bunch of money..... Choices, choices. Again, the trash pump will work on a limited basis.

Rod

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Glen in TX

05-04-2007 21:47:28




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 Re: O/T: Using a trash pump on a firefighting rig? in reply to Blue3992 (N Illinois), 05-04-2007 19:11:41  
I had 9 hp Wisconsin 2" pump with some 2" hose and had it on trailer for that with about a 500 gallon tank before we had fire dept. out here. It worked fine for even hay fires and I had one of those cheap plastic fire nozzles on end of 2" hose. 5-6 hp is kind of small and you really need to think of 10 hp or more if you want enough volume for putting out fire. I've been a firefighter for over 15 years and we don't put out fires with pressure anymore and that's old hat everyone has realized you need more water volume not pressure blowing more air into the fire. More air makes more fire but more water cools it faster putting it out! Something with volume will put more out end of hose than you think and try a local fire extinguisher place for those cheaper red plastic adjustable nozzles that go from fog to straight stream or just use a straight bore nozzle with a valve on it. It will work for what you are wanting but not for entering a structure or where lives can be in danger. For that you need lots more volume to be safe. Higher pressure pumps will need a bypass or water can get hot when not circulating. Hot enough to scald someone so be careful and think about a bypass.

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buickanddeere

05-04-2007 20:11:53




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 Re: O/T: Using a trash pump on a firefighting rig? in reply to Blue3992 (N Illinois), 05-04-2007 19:11:41  
High pressure is required to obtain an effective spray pattern and safe distance from the flames. Friction losses in hoses are supprising high in just 100ft of hose. If the pump won't make 150psi at 50gpm. You will be disapointed even with the smallest fire nozzel.



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Sid

05-04-2007 19:27:05




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 Re: O/T: Using a trash pump on a firefighting rig? in reply to Blue3992 (N Illinois), 05-04-2007 19:11:41  
From what I understand it is not a good idea to restrict flow on those pumps. I think this could be taken care of with a bypass valve for when you shut off the nozzle. In my mind it would work with the right hose and bypass valve sizing. I have a pump of that type we use to pull water from a well or pond to water stock and am playing around with same idea you are for a grass fire rig.



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Blue3992 (N Illinois)

05-04-2007 19:31:40




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 Re: O/T: Using a trash pump on a firefighting rig? in reply to Sid, 05-04-2007 19:27:05  
Yeah, it had crossed my mind to set up some sort of bypass from the outlet of the pump back into the tank. Something that you could adjust as needed so you wouldn't put too much backpressure on the pump.



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edchainsaw

05-04-2007 19:40:41




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 Re: O/T: Using a trash pump on a firefighting rig? in reply to Blue3992 (N Illinois), 05-04-2007 19:31:40  
just chiming in here..

we use these kinds of pumps on fertilzer and rutienly shut off the ends with the pump running--- but not for LONG periods of time ...

we also have the 2in pumps plumbed down to 1 1/2in lines a lot as well (both incomeing and out going)



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