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Who has radiant floor heat in there workshop?

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Randy in Pa

03-22-2007 04:53:24




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Hello, I was thinking about putting pipes in the concrete floor to put radiant floor heat in my new building. Anybody have any experience with this?




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Randy in Pa

03-25-2007 18:09:11




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 Re: Who has radiant floor heat in there workshop? in reply to Randy in Pa, 03-22-2007 04:53:24  
I have been out of town for a few days and I just want to thank every one for all the great advice!



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jeffcat

03-22-2007 21:23:10




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 Re: Who has radiant floor heat in there workshop? in reply to Randy in Pa, 03-22-2007 04:53:24  
BOY does this sound NICE!!!! I will never get a chance to build on my little lot but this would have been great on the farm when my Dad and me worked in the shop. We have an old house force air heater that really helps but a warm floor sounds SIN full! I am just so jelous! Thanks for the neat photos and a nice dream. Maybe a lottery in the future? Jeffcat



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edss

03-22-2007 20:49:18




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 Re: Who has radiant floor heat in there workshop? in reply to Randy in Pa, 03-22-2007 04:53:24  
I have a question concerning radiant floor heating I was told that electric or propane water heaters would be to costly to use and the location that I want to use radiant heating in there is no gas. Is this true that electric would be to costly



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Kent in KC

03-23-2007 07:43:24




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 Re: Who has radiant floor heat in there workshop? in reply to edss, 03-22-2007 20:49:18  
In my new house I use electric water heater to supplement my solar collectors because I got a Godfather offer on it from my elec coop, otherwise I would have used propane. Three solar collector plates can make a lot of hot water.

The first time each year when you fire up the heat, it will take an inordinate amount of energy to get the slab warm, so don't think your second energy bill will be like your first.

You say the location does not have gas, can't you put a 100 lb. propane bottle in? Better yet, a 500 gal tank? Or, like a lotta these guys do, rig a boiler that burns waste oil or wood, corn or Rosie O'Donnell reruns.

Best advice is Insulate First. Even gluing up 1" foam panels or just fiberglass batts makes a big difference.

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edss

03-23-2007 09:35:57




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 Re: Who has radiant floor heat in there workshop? in reply to Kent in KC, 03-23-2007 07:43:24  
Yes I could put in a propane tank.I will have to look in to the solar collecter plates . Thanks



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Larryh NE IL

03-22-2007 19:25:23




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 Re: Who has radiant floor heat in there workshop? in reply to Randy in Pa, 03-22-2007 04:53:24  
I've had my 65' X 45' shop in operation for 2 winters now and love it. I used 8" insulation in the walls and 12" blown in the ceiling. Costs less to keep the shop at 60 deg. than it does to heat my house. I don't think you need any external heat than the radiant floor heat. When you open a door, you simply turn the heat up so the fboiler kicks in. Your working IN the heat!



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marlowe

03-22-2007 16:56:33




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 Re: Who has radiant floor heat in there workshop? in reply to Randy in Pa, 03-22-2007 04:53:24  
have it and it's the best thing you can do BUT put in a forced air set up also because when you open up a big door the air will cool fast and with floor heat it takes a long time to warm back up



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Randy in Pa

03-22-2007 07:06:35




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 Re: Who has radiant floor heat in there workshop? in reply to Randy in Pa, 03-22-2007 04:53:24  
Another question, My contractor wants to do the pour in two sections. 30x70 = 2-30x35s, and pin the slabs. I am leary of the pipes going through a joint. Any tips here?



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steve n carol

03-22-2007 20:41:29




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 Re: Who has radiant floor heat in there workshop? in reply to Randy in Pa, 03-22-2007 07:06:35  
Randy you asked, "My contractor wants to do the pour in two sections. 30x70 = 2-30x35s, and pin the slabs. I am leary of the pipes going through a joint. Any tips here? "

Yes, Your contractor wants to place this slab in smaller sections because it's eaiser....That's okay, easy is good. Could be for a number of reasons....as far as pinning the slabs together, do you mean as in smooth steel dowels, say 16" X 1/2" dia? spced avery 2'? thats perfectably acceptable. This pinning controls the "lifting or sinking of the two adjecent pieces. As far as running your pipes through the cold/expansion or control joints, place your pex in a pvc sleeve. shove some styrafoam (injecting foam is best) into the annular space, just enough to keep the concrete from going inside the sleeve. The sleeve allows for any movement that might take place...and it will move. And don't be suprised if your concrete cracks either. Pex is great for concrete encasement! Very forgiving.

It's important that the slab sections are able to move on or around at least 1 side of the pinning dowles. Sometimes we place a "speedy sleeve" into the form work, (its a plastic sleeve that is left in the first pour. It's about 8-10" long and 3/4" dia. After the concrete sets up and the forms are removed, you can insert a smooth dowel into the speedy sleeve and place your next piece of concrete. OR, you can grease a smooth dowel, on one side. This is to allow the concrete NOT to adhere to the dowel. Thereby allowing the concrete to mooooove.
Watch these finishers!!!!! !!!! (ie shaved apes). You do NOT want your slab reinforcement on the BOTTOM of your finished slab! If you see this taking place, stop the pour!!! and make the crew PICK UP THE REBAR OR MESH. The reinforcement should be placed on "chairs" (plastic supprots) or Dobies" (square concrete blocks, preffably wired). Also, (yeah, I gots lots). the stiffer the concrete the stronger the finished product! Confer with your supplier and the contractor BEFORE you begin, When you place concrete, Hydration occurs. The chemical reaction evaporates the water in the mix, the more water you have, the more microscopic "voids" (where the water droplets were) you will be left with). Remember who is paying for all of this.....get waht YOU want and have paid for.

Now, EXAMPLE #1, Typical tract house in So. Calif.
I pulled up the carpet in the dining room and bathrooms to install tile. The floors were cracked MAJOR! these cracks were 5/8" wide! looked like a giant spider web. i could see dirt below the slab. This is called "shattered" caused by a LAZY crew who is un supervised. We'll just add 100 gals of water and the concrete will level itself!!! that's the mindset of 95% of the tradesmen I have run across! Concrete finishers are the worst! I know concrete is HARD work...I did it (the right and the wrong way) for 32 years...sl

AND watch these guys as they work arounf your pex, they'll tromp all over it. It should be pressurized with WATER. (can you say hydrostatic pressure). this will leak water (in the wet concrete slab) if it comprimised....okay, i'll stop...sl

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Mydeere

03-22-2007 09:28:06




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 Re: Who has radiant floor heat in there workshop? in reply to Randy in Pa, 03-22-2007 07:06:35  
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A 30 x 70 slab can be poured all at once. Just be sure to place control joints in a way that you end up with sections of floor no greater than 1500 sqft. My main shop floor is 30 x 50 and I placed it all at one time with two control joints. Your probably looking at 3 control joints for your floor. Run your piping parallel to the control joint to minimize crossing the joint if your worried about it. You will have to cross the control joint at some point which is no big deal. Look in the pic and you will see where all of the supplies and returns pass under the CJ to get to the manifold. The CJ is that metal piece that looks like a steel stud. Have the sales rep from whatever company your buying your radiant supplies from do a heat loss calc and layout plan for you. They don't usually charge for this and you will get a drawing showing what size tubing you need, what spacing to install it at and a layout for each loop. You really want them to provide this for you so that each loop will be balanced so you end up with a nice even heat distribution and no cold spots. A radiant system is made up of multiple loops of similar length and not just one long run of tubing. Also as far as control joints go, use the cast in place ones with the tear away stiffner so you don't have to risk cutting through one of your lines when the slab guys cut the control joints. Make sure you go over this with your floor finishers before the show up on site so they are prepared.

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Kent in KC

03-22-2007 07:56:09




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 Re: Who has radiant floor heat in there workshop? in reply to Randy in Pa, 03-22-2007 07:06:35  
Don't go through the joint. Make it two seperate zones, even if they both actually feed from the same source and with the same thermostat. Shouldn't cost any more than all one zone.



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Randy in Pa

03-22-2007 08:06:59




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 Re: Who has radiant floor heat in there workshop? in reply to Kent in KC, 03-22-2007 07:56:09  
Kent and others, thanks for the help, The boiler will be at one end of the building, so the second zone feed and return pipes will have to pass through the zone next to the boiler. Also because the building is stuck between another building and a hillside access is limited to the two ends. Morton has to charge more because of no access to the sides. We will have to get a pumper truck to do it in one pour which we might as well do anyway. Any body use 5x10 wire grid sections on chairs/risers instead of rebar to tie off the tubing? My ground is solid clay.

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JMS/MN

03-22-2007 08:53:11




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 Re: Who has radiant floor heat in there workshop? in reply to Randy in Pa, 03-22-2007 08:06:59  
Our basement floor heat has a vapor barrier over sand, then two inch blue polystyrene with cattle panel laid on top. Pex was wired to the panels, no risers. Took pix before pouring concrete- gives a reference for future floor work, like drilling anchor bolts, since panel wires were on six inch centers, pex on twelve inch centers.



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Randy in Pa

03-22-2007 08:55:48




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 Re: Who has radiant floor heat in there workshop? in reply to JMS/MN, 03-22-2007 08:53:11  
Thanks! What is the point of the sand?



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Kent in KC

03-22-2007 06:52:49




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 Re: Who has radiant floor heat in there workshop? in reply to Randy in Pa, 03-22-2007 04:53:24  
Heating a slab can take a few hours, say eight, so you have to plan ahead or use a programmable thermostat (which I do anyway).

In my upstairs we put down Warmboard which is an aluminum clad 1 1/4" subfloor with routed grooves for the PEX to lay in. I don't see why you couldn't use that stuff to make radiant walls. It heats up (and cools down) in about an hour so at night you drop the temps (again the programmable thermostat). Another nice thing about Warmboard is, if you do drill (or as I did) screw a hole in a tube, you can use a PEX union joint to fix it. Can't do that quite so easy if your tube is in a slab, needless to say.

And, yes, you can rely on it as the sole heat source. In fact, if you use a gas hot water tank (I have two 40 gals) or some other non-electric heat source, you can heat your building in a power failure easily since the pump that circulates the water through the floor doesn't need much power. A small gennie or solar/battery pack could do it, no prob.

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RickSCt

03-22-2007 16:39:34




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 Re: Who has radiant floor heat in there workshop? in reply to Kent in KC, 03-22-2007 06:52:49  

Kent I have been looking at warmboard for a house I am planning to build. I would like to know your experience with it? My email is open if you would talk with me about it. Thanks Rick.



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Kent in KC

03-23-2007 07:52:18




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 Re: Who has radiant floor heat in there workshop? in reply to RickSCt, 03-22-2007 16:39:34  
So far, I love it. Caveats: Make sure the installers watch the DVD that Warmboard sends you. It shows how to do it right. Threaten bodily harm to anyone who does not strictly adhere to the instructions.

Ours went in on a few real cold days, the guys got in a hurry and didn't put the specified amount of silicone in the routed groozes before laying the PEX in. Result: the tubing popped up on a few of the bends. For toilets, don't use wax rings (they'll melt), use PVC rings.

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Dave Sherburne NY

03-22-2007 06:51:38




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 Re: Who has radiant floor heat in there workshop? in reply to Randy in Pa, 03-22-2007 04:53:24  
I used it in a shop I built in Wis. 20'X32' Heated the liquid with a 40 gallon water heater. Worked great I could park a vehicle inside in the winter
and the next morning the car and floor are dry.
I had antifreze in the liquid, and turned it off when I went away once and it took 2 days to warm it
up again. I got plans from North Dakota State University.



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Mydeere

03-22-2007 06:24:46




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 Re: Who has radiant floor heat in there workshop? in reply to Randy in Pa, 03-22-2007 04:53:24  
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I put radiant heating in the slab of my new shop. Shop is still under construction so I can't tell you how well it works. If you decide to go this route be sure to insulate your foundation walls and the underside of the slab to avoid heat loss to the outside. You need to also be sure that you use oxygen barrier tubing in the system.If you don't you will end up with a sludge in the system that will reduce your heat output as well as shorten the life of your boiler. Originally I wasn't going to put it in, but family members who are plumbers, convinced me to at least put the tubing in in case I change my mind. Since then I've talked to others who have raidiant and they swear by it. I look forward to working in there in comfort on those cold winter days.

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J Schwiebert

03-22-2007 05:55:29




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 Re: Who has radiant floor heat in there workshop? in reply to Randy in Pa, 03-22-2007 04:53:24  
I had one experience with it before we put up a building. We did it and love it. A friend of mine had it and also now is using a waste oil heater to heat the liquid. Also put plenty of insulation in the walls and ceiling. J.



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grazer

03-22-2007 05:54:31




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 Re: Who has radiant floor heat in there workshop? in reply to Randy in Pa, 03-22-2007 04:53:24  
We have it in our shop.We would have it no other way.It is not the cheapest way to go for if you do it right it will double the cost of your floor. When you work on your floor it will be warm all winter.



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Kent in KC

03-22-2007 05:37:12




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 Re: Who has radiant floor heat in there workshop? in reply to Randy in Pa, 03-22-2007 04:53:24  
Put it in my new house and love it so far. It's weird, it really is radiant. When you walk it the heat 'shines' up at you. If you put in multiple zones (with thermostats) when you walk from one zone to another, the sensation of changing temp is immediate, a clean demarcation.

If you open a door and cold air rushes in, it immediately feels warm again when you close the door because it doesn't heat the air. Sit in a chair and the chair is already warm.

I'll never go back to forced air heat.

BTW, (I know some may be getting tired of me harping about this stuff) if you haven't done it already, look up solar air heaters. They're cheap and easy to build and provide free clean heat. While you're at it, go to Wikipedia.com and check out my article on Earth Cooling Tubes. I just installed them on my new home and will be reporting on their effectiveness in a few hot weeks.

Anybody else doing anything new to stay warm or cool without spending a fortune?

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Randy in Pa

03-22-2007 05:56:27




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 Re: Who has radiant floor heat in there workshop? in reply to Kent in KC, 03-22-2007 05:37:12  
Thanks Ken and Kent! Questions, Can it be the sole source of heat? I am actually going to use the building for a photography studio and it has to be warm for babies and the like. How long does it take to heat the room from say 50 degrees to 70 degrees?



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riverbend

03-22-2007 07:02:44




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 Re: Who has radiant floor heat in there workshop? in reply to Randy in Pa, 03-22-2007 05:56:27  
Add a water to air heat exchanger and a blower to warm the air quickly. Check with guys who sell outdoor wood fired boilers.



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Ken Macfarlane

03-22-2007 05:40:51




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 Re: Who has radiant floor heat in there workshop? in reply to Kent in KC, 03-22-2007 05:37:12  
It is really cheap to install the tubes, just make sure you know their locations if you're planning to epoxy a lift or something into your slab. Repairing a drilled through tube is a pain.

They are really nice on the feet in the winter, and if you have to lay on the floor. Evaporates water off the floor quick too even if you don't keep the shop really warm.



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504-2

03-22-2007 18:38:35




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 Re: Who has radiant floor heat in there workshop? in reply to Ken Macfarlane, 03-22-2007 05:40:51  
Randy check out The Pex Connection.com. They fixed me up with everything from pipe to valves, crimpers and a floor plan a LOT cheaper than I found local(also told me what I was about to do wrong and how to do it right)



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