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Spark plug diagnosis - need your input PLEASE!

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Steven@AZ

03-09-2007 15:53:37




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I've been trying to help a friend with a Farmall H and a John Deere that have been fouling plugs, even the hotter range ones. We've been through all the usual ideas of carburetor tuning, timing, good points, coil, solid core spark plug wires, etc. The H smokes a bit at start up but then clears up, compression is good, etc. Now he has sent me some plugs to photograph and put up for the collective to inspect - I feel that they are somewhat oil fouled, but sooty like flooding out as well.

Here are pictures of the spark plugs from the H:

third party image

third party image

third party image

And the JD plugs:

third party image

third party image

Any thoughts, advice, prior experience, etc. would be great. Thanks in advance!

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Dell (WA)

03-10-2007 08:14:31




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 Re: Spark plug diagnosis - need your input PLEASE! in reply to Steven@AZ, 03-09-2007 15:53:37  
Steven..... ...good photos BTW. Both sets of sparkies show BLACK-SOOT from improper IDLE-MIX adjust. Altho the wet-black sparkie from the Farmall H is more likely from BAD sparkie wire, NOT oil fouling. And it ain'chur carb.

Heres the deal; sparkies have several properties that are confuzzing. HOT-sparkies and hot-SPARKIES. HOT-sparkies relate to physical build of the white center insulator (cold=short; LONG=HOT) Modern NO-Lead gasoline in lightly used tractors (trailer-queens?) need HOT-sparkies to BURN-OFF invisible no-lead deposits for smooth idle. hot-SPARKIES relate to the knocks'ya'azz stuff out the sparkie-wire end.

"hot-SPARKIES" are tune-up related and sparkie-wire related. OLD tractors need copper-core sparkie-wires ($10, cheap) cut-to-fit. DO NOT USE modern carbon fiber core anti-radiostatic sparkie-wire. The anti-radiostatic stuff is RESISTOR which cuts-down the sparkies from the just barely adequate tractor ignition system.

TIP: iff'n yer sparkie-wires ain't soft and flexible like limp noodle, REPLACE'em!!! Why? 'cuz them lazy sparkies gonna be DANCIN' on OUTSIDE of sparkie insulation 'stedda' jumpin' the gap. Always check the sparkie gap per specs right outta the box.

The "proper" way to check yer sparkie heat-range (HOT-sparkies) is to operate yer engine under LOAD and "cut" the ignition at HIGH rpms. De-CLUTCH and coast to a stop. Then read yer sparkie colors; white=too-hot; tanish-grayish=just right; carbon deposits=too-cold; sooty-blackish=too-rich carb mainjet.

Then learn how to adjust yer carb idle-mix. Much to the dismay of gov't smoggy bureaucrats, all carbs need adjustment to match their engine. Thats why theres them handy-dandy carb tweek'ems.

Adjust for maximum/highest idle-speed; NOT SMOOTHEST IDLE, maximum idle-speed. Understand? Don't matter what tractor, don't matter what carburetor, its always MAX-IDLE rpms. And to ears used to sewing-machine whirr of rice-rockets, the ubber-slow tractor pocka-pocka idle is scary. Do the side-pointing idle-mix adjust and idle-speed adjust at least 3-times. tip: most Marvel/Schebler side-pointing idle-mix is BACKASSWARDS, out for lean, IN for ENRICH. Simple, eh?..... ..HTH, Dell

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HAPPY DEERE

03-10-2007 07:04:08




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 Re: Spark plug diagnosis - need your input PLEASE! in reply to Steven@AZ, 03-09-2007 15:53:37  
now why would you worry about a farmall? now on the john deere side they do make adapters that will let you run new style plugs in older tractors but with the oil bath air filter make shure it is cleaned up and that you are using the right weight of oil 32degrees or below run 10w 32 to 90 run 20 weight and 90+ run 30 weight i usually run synthetic as it seems to stop smoking



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Mike M

03-10-2007 05:26:29




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 Re: Spark plug diagnosis - need your input PLEASE! in reply to Steven@AZ, 03-09-2007 15:53:37  
Nothing an overhaul and carb. adjustment can't clear up. Unless they are using some weird gas mixture and adding 2 cycle oil or something ?



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dan hill

03-10-2007 01:54:15




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 Re: Spark plug diagnosis - need your input PLEASE! in reply to Steven@AZ, 03-09-2007 15:53:37  
Check water temperature in the top tank with a meat thermometer.My JD has a radiator shutter to control water temp.The farmall H has got to have a thermostat in it.Chances are you will find it missing or stuck open.My John Deere will not show any heat on the temp gauge unlees I am mowing in thick grass.Running an engine without a thermostat is done often,its plain stupid to do this.My John Deere was designed to run with out a water pump or thermostat.I adjust the radiator shutter to bring the temp up.Check your heat range on the spark plugs and suspect poor gas also.Remember that the engine runs on the idle circuit at low rpm.

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Jerry/MT

03-09-2007 21:33:56




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 Re: Spark plug diagnosis - need your input PLEASE! in reply to Steven@AZ, 03-09-2007 15:53:37  
I'd say the IH plugs were oil fouled and because you said "...it smokes a bit on start up..." I'd guess that your valve guides might be worn and/or the stem seals on the intake valves are shot. It smokes at start up because oil drips into the cylinder down an open valve. At low rpm (high manifold vacuum), you may also sucking in some from the intake valve guides/and worn stem seal . At high rpms under load,(low manifold vaccum) the problem is greatly reduced.

Regarding the JD, that looks like it carboned up from being too cold a plug, too rich a mixture, or not working it hard enough to get the engine to operating temperature and running it under some load.
Without more info, it's hard to say anymore than that.

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Walt Davies

03-09-2007 20:31:18




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 Re: Spark plug diagnosis - need your input PLEASE! in reply to Steven@AZ, 03-09-2007 15:53:37  
mine looked like that I put a new head on raised the compression and completely rebuilt the carb now she runs great cold or hot.
Walt



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vally farm

03-09-2007 19:50:48




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 Re: Spark plug diagnosis - need your input PLEASE! in reply to Steven@AZ, 03-09-2007 15:53:37  
Looks like they need some hard work to me too. If you get them good and heated up try to spray a LITTLE water mist (very fine) through the carb. The engine has to be hot and med-high throtle. This will cause a small amount of steam to help clean out the carbon buildup in the head. NOTE!!! - Too much water may want to blow the head gasket or cause other problems like a bent rod from the water hydrolocking a piston!!! Just a very light spritz, wait a minute for everything to burn through, another light spritz, etc. for 5-6 times. The chances are much greater that the tractor will stall befor any bad things happen, but I just want to make sure you are aware of it. This is best done outside or your nice clean ceiling will have a large black carbon sneeze on it. Mike

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Hermit

03-09-2007 18:27:17




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 Re: Spark plug diagnosis - need your input PLEASE! in reply to Steven@AZ, 03-09-2007 15:53:37  
The H has fouling from a rich mixture and one plug has slight oil consumption but not bad enough to cause fouling. The JD has just fouling from a rich mixture. Since they all look the same, I'd look for something common. In wintertime, people tend to forgot to put a winter-weight oil in the air filter oil bath. If you use a heavier oil than recommended for winter, it's like partially closing the choke causing a rich mixture. This constantly rich mixture to the cylinders can cause them to foul out after a while. Good luck.

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ChadS

03-09-2007 17:28:01




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 Re: Spark plug diagnosis - need your input PLEASE! in reply to Steven@AZ, 03-09-2007 15:53:37  
You need to pull the heads off both of em and clean out the carbon build up. OR put em on a dyno and burn that junk out of the chambers, OR go out and work em hard for a few hours. Carbon, when it builds up, will act like oil burners, it melts when its warmed up and runs everywhere in the cyl, when it cools, it hardens back up and sticks to anything it can, plugs are usually the first to go. Might need valve seals or guides replaced if it continues after you work it for a while. JMHO,,, it has carbon built up inside. ChadS

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rrlund

03-09-2007 16:31:03




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 Re: Spark plug diagnosis - need your input PLEASE! in reply to Steven@AZ, 03-09-2007 15:53:37  
What do they have on them for wires? If they are the new carbon core,throw them away and replace them with steel or copper core.



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Johnski

03-09-2007 16:27:18




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 Re: Spark plug diagnosis - need your input PLEASE! in reply to Steven@AZ, 03-09-2007 15:53:37  
I have had very good luck with Aldor sparkplugs in old cars and tractors that don't get run much. I'm not sure how they work but they seem to help even out the idle and don't foul as easily. The local hardware store where I used to get them is gone now but here is a link to the web site. HTH Jf Link



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georgeky

03-09-2007 16:16:45




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 Re: Spark plug diagnosis - need your input PLEASE! in reply to Steven@AZ, 03-09-2007 15:53:37  
Is it running to rich. If so it will probably foul 2 and 3 more so than 1 or 4. Try carb adjustment. Sometimes valves can leak a little oil into combustion chamber and cause plugs to foul.Could be worn or broke rings.



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Brian Decatur co. Ia

03-09-2007 16:07:36




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 Re: Spark plug diagnosis - need your input PLEASE! in reply to Steven@AZ, 03-09-2007 15:53:37  
The H plugs look like a combination of fuel and oil fouling. The JD plugs are just fuel fouled. If these are the hotter plugs, I'm going to guess both tractors don't see much work meaning work that makes the governor open up. Another thing that will affect plug fouling is low coolant temp. If the engine never gets up to 190 degrees, they're only going to foul more. A cold running engine will also have sludge build up since it never gets warm enough to fully evaporate condensation in the crankcase. Work them harder and get the engines hot so they can burn off the carbon deposits.

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msb

03-09-2007 16:02:52




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 Re: Spark plug diagnosis - need your input PLEASE! in reply to Steven@AZ, 03-09-2007 15:53:37  
Could be lots of causes including the coil being hooked up wrong, but the first step should be a compression check.



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Steven@AZ

03-09-2007 16:07:27




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 Re: Spark plug diagnosis - need your input PLEASE! in reply to msb, 03-09-2007 16:02:52  
I mentioned that the compression has been checked - it is good. I know compression can be fine and still have oil burning problems, if the oil rings are broken. We are just trying to look into other options before tearing into the engine for major work...



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B-maniac

03-09-2007 18:48:24




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 Re: Spark plug diagnosis - need your input PLEASE! in reply to Steven@AZ, 03-09-2007 16:07:27  
Got to agree with Brian. Hook it up to sumptin that will work it hard for an hour or so. Then check your plugs again. Sometimes we tend to "over think" these things. It is a tractor and it's meant to haul , not put around.



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