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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

Problems with ultra low sulfur diesel

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NC wayne

02-28-2007 17:17:09




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I saw a post from earlier talking about the new ultra low sulfer diesel fuel and any problems associated with it. I had a customer call today telling me the engine on his machine had just quit. It's a 4BTA Cummins driving an air compressor unit on a rock drill and it runs wide open most of the time. Well Dad ran down to check it since I was tied up on another job and called to tell me it that based on what he had found the injection pump was the only thing it could be. It has a rotary style injector pump that I just put on, new, from Cummins, about 5 months ago, so I really didn't know what to think when he told me this. Dad stopped by the fuel shop that normally does all out pump work to ask them about what had happened. They told him that their already starting to see problems in the older pumps because of the lack of lubricity in the new fuel due to the lower sulfur content. In the case of this pump the plungers stick which results in exactly what the customer said happened, the engine shuts down and won't restart. Dad also started having problems with the 3116 CAT in his truck a few months back, about the time the fuel shop said they started seeing an increase in their business, when they started really getting the fuel out around here. Dad's been doing business with these guys for well over 20 years and about half that for me, and they've never steered us wrong before. That said, their suggestion was if you want to keep your older engine running on the new fuel you'd better start using an additive or your headed for a problem with the fuel system.

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buickanddeere

02-28-2007 21:13:21




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 Re: Problems with ultra low sulfur diesel in reply to NC wayne, 02-28-2007 17:17:09  
Around here the low sulphur fuel caused problems. When the ultra low sulphur fuel was marketed. The refineres were smart enough to add a lubricant additive package.



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MSD

02-28-2007 20:49:22




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 Re: Problems with ultra low sulfur diesel in reply to NC wayne, 02-28-2007 17:17:09  
The Flying J near here runs a truck just about steady refilling their tanks. There is a steady stream of trucks going in and out of there day and night. How do these guys keep their trucks running steady if the low sulfur causes all these problems? I doubt they are treating each tank



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TomTX

02-28-2007 19:51:41




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 Re: Problems with ultra low sulfur diesel in reply to NC wayne, 02-28-2007 17:17:09  
I have watched this debated on here for several years. I will probably get dumped on but my method has been to add 1 quart of Power Service fuel additive to each 50 gallons of diesel in the barrel/tank at fillup. I do this to EVERY drop 365 days per year. I am 66 years old and have not ever pulled a pump, lost an injector, had fuel gel, experienced a plugged filter, or had difficult starting. There are several foumulations. The one I get is available almost everwhere, and it increases the lubricity, removes moisture, prevents gelling, raised the cetane rating by 4 to 6 numbers etc, etc. I am convinced this is money well spend. At $5 per 50 gal;one you are talking about 10 cents per gallon, which I can treat 5000 to 7000 gallons of fuel for the price of a pump rebuild. I will spend the money and not worry about the rating of on-raod or off-road. Tom

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Dave Barl.

02-28-2007 19:27:04




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 Re: Problems with ultra low sulfur diesel in reply to NC wayne, 02-28-2007 17:17:09  
Fuel-supplier is misleading you guys and the mechanics aren’t lying. There is a problem with the lubricity of ULSD and Stanadyne and other major manufactures state that in their statements check their web sites. Its simple hydrotreating takes out other properties in the fuel and makes it dry like D1 diesel but even worse. Ask yourself this if it weren’t a problem would engine makers have to go back and change the engines for 2007? Would injection system manufacturers complain about relaxed standards? Stanadyne says there are no real regulations on fuel quality and what little that is in place is not sufficient to guarantee true protection, its not motor oil its fuel and different specifications apply. Canada and a few other countries are the only ones who truly address fuel lubricity problems and require an additive. We are being sold trash fuel and they are lying to us. Check Stanadyne’s web site if you don’t believe me. D975 standard is a joke. Link

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Fuel-Supplier

03-02-2007 20:54:35




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 Re: Problems with ultra low sulfur diesel in reply to Dave Barl., 02-28-2007 19:27:04  
One other point to keep in mind. Standadyne markets and makes profit by selling fuel additive. Not too tough to figure out why Standadyne is an advocate of folks thinking that they need to by fuel additive.



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Fuel-Supplier

03-02-2007 20:48:18




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 Re: Problems with ultra low sulfur diesel in reply to Dave Barl., 02-28-2007 19:27:04  
You are right on most counts, sulfur does reduce the lubricating components of diesel, that is why lubricity is mechanically injected at the rack during truck loading and records have to be maintained to support the injection rates. It's highly regulated. 2007 diesel engine components are being made different to accommodate exhaust particulate burning. The EPA mandated oil companies to eliminate sulfur so that the engine manufactures equipment to burn the particulate matter doesn't get plugged with sulfur. It's very straight forward.

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Jim Johnson

02-28-2007 19:07:57




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 Re: Problems with ultra low sulfur diesel in reply to NC wayne, 02-28-2007 17:17:09  
Would adding some regular motor oil when fueling take care of this problem? Thanks. Jim



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Steven@AZ

02-28-2007 18:59:10




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 Re: Problems with ultra low sulfur diesel in reply to NC wayne, 02-28-2007 17:17:09  
Sulphur does NOT add lubricity to the fuel; however, the refining process to remove sulphur also removes lubricity from the fuel.

That's what I read about it anyways...

"Apparently, one source of the trouble is that there are many ways to remove the sulphur content. The cheapest of these involves hydrotreating, a process that removes sulphur by treating it with hydrogen. Unfortunately, hydrogen is highly reactive and also reduces the lubricity, or lubrication properties, of the end-product diesel. Another factor in the equation is the initial content of sulphur in the base crude oil; crude from Alaska tends to be very high sulphur, Venezuelan relatively low, for example. As a result the lubrication properties of the fuel could be different for each oil refinery and can even change as a particular refinery's crude oil sources change."

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Joe(TX)

03-01-2007 06:21:15




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 Re: Problems with ultra low sulfur diesel in reply to Steven@AZ, 02-28-2007 18:59:10  
Steve
you need to reread the quote. It does not say that sulfer does not provide lubrication. It says that the hydrotreating can reduce the lubricity. The hydrotreating is removing the sulfer. Sulfer is the lubricant.



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Steven@AZ

03-01-2007 07:52:59




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 Re: Problems with ultra low sulfur diesel in reply to Joe(TX), 03-01-2007 06:21:15  
You need to re-read the quote. The Hydrogen used to reduce the sulphur content also reduces the lubricity of the fuel.



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Davis In SC

02-28-2007 18:26:49




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 Re: Problems with ultra low sulfur diesel in reply to NC wayne, 02-28-2007 17:17:09  
Wayne, do the pump shop guys recommend any certain brand of additive? I usually use Power Service, but sometimes I use Howe's. I do remember back in the 90's, when they cut down the sulphur content, the first time, many higher mileage trucks started having problems, mainly with seals leaking. The explanation was, that the seals swelled and ran in, but when the sulphur level was dropped, the seals shrank, and started leaking..

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John M

02-28-2007 18:20:23




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 Re: Problems with ultra low sulfur diesel in reply to NC wayne, 02-28-2007 17:17:09  
Im sorry guys but Im just not understanding it. Sulphur is not added to the diesel, its a by product of the burning of it, so if its burning of the fuel that causes sulphur, how is it lubricating the injector pump? I guess Ill be like the other feller that got a blasting on here a while back for saying that!



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Allan In NE

02-28-2007 18:29:03




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 Re: Problems with ultra low sulfur diesel in reply to John M, 02-28-2007 18:20:23  
Me too John,

How in the heck can you have lubing problems with an oil anyway?

Allan



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RAB

02-28-2007 22:44:27




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 Re: Problems with ultra low sulfur diesel in reply to Allan In NE, 02-28-2007 18:29:03  
Allan,

Umpteen steps further. Well not that many, and the refinery product from oil is gasoline. Try running that through an injection pump! OK, it will also burn up the engine but at the same time there will be no lubricity.
Regards, RAB



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John M

02-28-2007 18:30:02




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 Re: Problems with ultra low sulfur diesel in reply to Allan In NE, 02-28-2007 18:29:03  
Exactly!!!



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farmboy steve

02-28-2007 18:17:09




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 Re: Problems with ultra low sulfur diesel in reply to NC wayne, 02-28-2007 17:17:09  
have been using co-op B-2 ulsd in on road trucks, and this last cold spell(0to -10 temp) that fuel was gelling at +20. switched to the dyed off road and did not have any trouble. hope they get it together befor next winter.



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John M

02-28-2007 18:32:11




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 Re: Problems with ultra low sulfur diesel in reply to farmboy steve, 02-28-2007 18:17:09  
You had B20 gel @ 20*?Did it sit for a few days or something? The few 15* to 20* morning we have had didnt seem to phase the B20 Im running.



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Mydeere

02-28-2007 18:05:02




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 Re: Problems with ultra low sulfur diesel in reply to NC wayne, 02-28-2007 17:17:09  
Is this low sulfur diesel an issue with HEUI injection systems or just mechanical pumps?



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Fuel-Supplier

02-28-2007 17:41:06




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 Re: Problems with ultra low sulfur diesel in reply to NC wayne, 02-28-2007 17:17:09  
Every major fuel supplier that follows ASTM specification will inject the currect amount of lubricity in every ultra low sulfur diesel (ULSD) diesel gallon sold. It's the law, and it is being carefully reconciled. I run dyed ULSD in my 60s vintage tractors without concern. Now here is the catch: Twenty percent of the fuel a "company" produces can be high sulfur diesel (HSD). True HSD has 5000 parts per million (ppm) sulfur content and does not require lubricity additive. The problem is that the HSD often has sulfur content BETWEEN 15 ppm (the ULSD maximum sulfur content) and 5000 ppm, and it may not have lubricity added by your fuel supplier. Note that anything above 15 ppm can be marketed as "high sulfur diesel". It must be dyed, but not all terminals (fuel suppliers) are adding lubricity to this product. Most major oils are doing so. Hence, therein lies the problem. Make sure your fuel supplier is adding the full dose of lubricity, whether it is ULSD, low sulfur diesel (500 ppm), or HSD. This changes July 2007 when all diesel, regardless of sulfur content, must have lubricity injected. Buy smart, or add an additive.

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mj

02-28-2007 23:20:49




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 Re: Problems with ultra low sulfur diesel in reply to Fuel-Supplier, 02-28-2007 17:41:06  
third party image

Heard all of that but I'm still gonna keep up with the PowerService just in case one of the fuel supplier's employees takes an early lunch break and forgets to dump in the additives. :-)



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