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Can I burn hydrogen in propane tractor

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joak

02-16-2007 18:10:44

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I have been researching hydrogen production by electrolysis. I have been told It can be used in a propane system. Your thoughts, please,

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dej(JED)

02-19-2007 05:27:42

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Re: Can I burn hydrogen in propane tractor in reply to joak, 02-16-2007 18:10:44

I had a guy show up with a car fitted to make and burn H. It was an elctrolysis process using DI water. No big deal. No safety hazard. Just a simply system which sends vapor to the air intake side. Increases mileage about 35%. Hydrogen bomb pictures, massive fires ,etc. Petroleum is HC, hydrogen and carbon. Some of you guys are way out there.

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Bill(Wis)

02-17-2007 05:40:14

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Re: Can I burn hydrogen in propane tractor in reply to joak, 02-16-2007 18:10:44

Has your research included BMW's hydrogen powered vehicle program? They've been working on this for over 30 years. Will finally produce a few this year for important politicians to lease in an effort to drum up support in that arena. Honda, GM, Ford, Mazda, Peugeot, etc., also have programs.

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Gerald J.

02-17-2007 08:08:22

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Re: Can I burn hydrogen in propane tractor in reply to Bill(Wis), 02-17-2007 05:40:14

While its really hard to contain and just hard to make from water (though hot steam hitting red hot iron is a more energy efficient production process than electroysis) hydrogen has very interesting combustion properties. It will burn in air at concentrations from about 4% to somthing over 80%. The optimum bang is with 2 parts H to each part oxygen to make only water as the combustion product. That making water is what keeps up all the interest. For the combustion products from an engine to be only water means the combustion temperature has to be low enough to prevent making nitrous oxide from the 20% nitrogen in the combustion air. Trouble is the engine efficiency is higher with higher combustion temperatures.

Hydrogen may be better used in a fuel cell than a reciprocating internal combustion engine. And there are fuel cells that will use the handier fuels like methane or ethanol, doing some reforming of the vapor to concentrate the hydrogen for the fuel cell.

Gerald J.

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1936

02-17-2007 04:51:37

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Re: Can I burn hydrogen in propane tractor in reply to joak, 02-16-2007 18:10:44

NASCAR is using some interesting jels lately. You old pullers take note. Same as gas in the air clearer bowl on a diesel 720?

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hillbillyOH

02-17-2007 04:48:53

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Re: Can I burn hydrogen in propane tractor in reply to joak, 02-16-2007 18:10:44

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Ken B.

02-17-2007 07:43:11

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Re: Can I burn hydrogen in propane tractor in reply to hillbillyOH, 02-17-2007 04:48:53

HillbillyOh He ask about burning it IN his tractor that is outside , but a good one.

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buickanddeere

02-16-2007 21:06:21

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Re: Can I burn hydrogen in propane tractor in reply to joak, 02-16-2007 18:10:44

Hydrogen is touchy to burn in a reciprocating engine as it's octane is extremely low. Knocking & detonation is a real problem. Even more so with high compresison LP engine. Hydrogen is best burned in Nasa rockets, fuel cells or used in pertochemical refining to reform heavy oils into road fuels. Storage is only practical when soaked into hydrides at modest pressures. Liquid hydrogen has to be stored at cryogenic temps. High pressure metal cylinders full of hydrogen tend to become brittle. Also the hydrogen molucule is so small, it seaps right through most materials. You will be much happier growing a field of soybeans, rapeseed or canola. Then using a mechanical press to extract the oil. Then reforming the oil to get rid of the glycerin etc. The left over mash is a high protein livestock feed. If you are stuck on using a windmill or solar power directly in your vehicle. Count on a 20-40 mile round trip machine using golf cart batteries. Remember lead is a toxic heavy metal and will still be toxic long after used nuclear fuel has decayed to inert levels. The acid is no fun either. Plus batteries are extra nasty as they are always live and can not be "shut off" to work on or around them. Make a mistake and boooom.

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Janicholson

02-17-2007 13:10:43

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Re: Can I burn hydrogen in propane tractor in reply to buickanddeere, 02-16-2007 21:06:21

I agree with most of what you say except the octane rating of Hydrogen, it is very close to 130, which is way higher than even AV gas. There is no reason 13:1 or 14:1 compression ratios could not be used. * Methane: 125 * Propane: 105 * Octane: 100 * Gasoline: 87 * Diesel: 30
From hydrogen facts (google it) JimN

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MarkB_MI

02-16-2007 19:55:53

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Re: Can I burn hydrogen in propane tractor in reply to joak, 02-16-2007 18:10:44

If you have to ask, you haven't done enough research yet. As others have said, compressing and storing hydrogen is no trivial matter.

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Bob

02-16-2007 20:23:26

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Re: Can I burn hydrogen in propane tractor in reply to MarkB_MI, 02-16-2007 19:55:53

The hydrogen tank in the UND car we looked at is made of wound carbon fiber, lots of $$$$. They told us the company that makes them cuts a large % of the production apart to verify quality control, as keeping the hydrogen stored at extreme pressures is no small matter.

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'52 Farmall H

02-16-2007 19:08:50

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Re: Can I burn hydrogen in propane tractor in reply to joak, 02-16-2007 18:10:44

We use Hydrogen at the company I work for. It is VERY dangerous. They say if we ever have an accident, our whole plant and probably the surrounding area would be leveled.
I have also made hydrogen with electrolysis, it takes a lot of power and time. As far as I know electrolysis isn't used commercially for H2 production so it can't be that feasible. I agree with the others, you would need some spacial equipment. Hydrogen can be stored as a gas or a cryogenic liquid.
I would also think that converting a propane tractor may to possible, but probably not. My first choice would be to convert a diesel engine since they are stronger and hydrogen is very powerful.

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Gerald J.

02-16-2007 18:54:30

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Re: Can I burn hydrogen in propane tractor in reply to joak, 02-16-2007 18:10:44

An old timer near Rippey Iowa was burning hydrogen in his truck 25 or 30 years go.

I don't know any details, but he had enough range to get to Des Moines and back at least.

He probably made the hydrogen by electrolysis using a wind generator, photo electrics were unreasonably expensive in those days.

Gerald J.

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RustyFarmall

02-17-2007 07:24:53

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Re: Can I burn hydrogen in propane tractor in reply to Gerald J., 02-16-2007 18:54:30

Gerald, I remember reading that article in either Farm Journal, or Successful Farming magazine. I wish I knew where to find that story again.

If I remember correctly, that farmer was generating the hydrogen on board, as it was used, with only a small storage tank that didn't hold enough hydrogen to be dangerous.

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joak

02-16-2007 18:46:13

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Re: Can I burn hydrogen in propane tractor in reply to joak, 02-16-2007 18:10:44

Natural gas is burned in vehicles . Is it liquified? Ford Motor has some hydrogen cars. We have lots of wind in Texas to use to make electricity to use to produce hydrogen. Hydrogen can also be used for heating, cooking or to power generators. There is a great future fo people who have initative to take advantage. More comments please.

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Bob

02-16-2007 18:23:21

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Re: Can I burn hydrogen in propane tractor in reply to joak, 02-16-2007 18:10:44

Safely storing any quantity at all of hydrogen between the time it is produced and the engine consumes it will be an interesting challenge.

Last year, I toured the University of ND EERC (Energy and Environmental Research Center), and saw their hydrogen powered car, and the elaborate fuel tank and fuel transfer system. They are working on the whole hydrogen deal... creation of hydrogen by electrolysis, powered by a wind generator on campus, and also hydrogen fuel cell projects. They told us some of the fuel cell equipment is from a division of John Deere.

Interesting stuff!

Hydrogen on the Prairie

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KEB

02-16-2007 18:17:46

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Re: Can I burn hydrogen in propane tractor in reply to joak, 02-16-2007 18:10:44

Why would you want to? You'd have to compress it and store it at high pressure, and then meter it into the engine. I didn't look up the energy content of hydrogen as compared to propane, but I suspect a reasonable size high pressure cylinder wouldn't last nearly as long as a similar sized propane. In order to keep liquid hydrogen, you'd have to cool it (that's why frost forms on the side of the shuttle tanks - liquid hydrogen and oxygen).

Probably achievable, but not very practical...

Keith

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