Welcome! Please use the navigational links to explore our website.
PartsASAP LogoCompany Logo Auction Link (800) 853-2651

Shop Now

   Allis Chalmers Case Farmall IH Ford 8N,9N,2N Ford
   Ferguson John Deere Massey Ferguson Minn. Moline Oliver

Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

Question for John T or others....

Welcome Guest, Log in or Register
Author 
B-maniac

01-31-2007 19:48:20




Report to Moderator

Restored my '66 GTO few yrs.ago. Has the tri-power engine and they run hot. Didn't want the usual "hot starting" problems with GM starters and hot engines. Took original starter to local "expert" starter rebuilder and he said don't bother with the aftermarket so-called "high-torque" starters , that he could rebuild mine to start that engine no matter how hot it was. He did , and it does. This thing has 10.75 compression and initial timing of 12 BTDC and cranks as good hot as cold. Very happy with it. Here's the question. He said he would rebuild it with "double shunt" windings to get this level of performance. WHAT is a "double shunt" winding and what does it accomplish and why aren't they all built this way??? Oh , by the way , this rebuild cost me the grand total of $75.00 and zings this engine over as good as any of the $300.00 "high perf. stuff from the speed shops.

[Log in to Reply]   [No Email]
monomechanical

02-01-2007 16:03:43




Report to Moderator
 Say Gerald J. . . in reply to B-maniac, 01-31-2007 19:48:20  
Sir Gerald: If I give you 5K dollars, will you download to my brain, 10% of what you know about electricals?

Please? It's cheaper than getting an EE degree and it's about data-equivalent, I suspect.


mono



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
B-maniac

02-01-2007 14:29:38




Report to Moderator
 Re: Question for John T or others.... in reply to B-maniac, 01-31-2007 19:48:20  
Thank you all for your answers. As far as why they all aren't all built that way , I assume it is a matter of economics. Also , I set my initial timing where it starts the best and then use light or timing tape and weights and springs to get the advance curve and total where I want it. In the case of this engine it worked out to 12 initial and 34 total at 2800 rpm with 98 octane leaded race fuel. This starter with a 800cca Die Hard never even acts like it's under load , even when hot.Nice combination!

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Rick Kr

02-01-2007 09:47:47




Report to Moderator
 Re: Question for John T or others.... in reply to B-maniac, 01-31-2007 19:48:20  
I dont argue the answers since electrical is not my strong point.

There are two kinds of "hi-performace" starters I am familar with.

1. The mini-starter. Which really is only smaller for header clearance.
2. The true HP starter. This has a significant difference in gear reduction compared to a factory starter.

We have had motors with locked out timing 30-40 degrees, 12:1 compression that I guarantee a factory starter wouldnt move. Tried it to. Relocated the solenoid and it didnt help. Wonder how one of the double shunt starters would do on a engine like that.

Wouldnt a double shunt motor and a deeper gear reduction be the ideal hi-performance starter.

Just wondering anybodies thoughts,

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
John T

02-01-2007 06:18:49




Report to Moderator
 Re: Question for John T or others.... in reply to B-maniac, 01-31-2007 19:48:20  
B Maniac, Im gladdddd dd my ol engineering buddy Gerald answered your question, DC Motors are NOT my best thing and Gerald really shines in that area (I long forgot that stuff, he still practices). Seems some people have a tendancy to time high performance motors a tad on the too far advanced side which makes them "bump the starter" cuz they wanna kick back when started cuz shes firing just a bit too far BEFORE TDC and such is hard on starter drives. Ive also seen people try n use heat shields to help that "hot start" problem. Sounds like the shunt field should help your problem.

Yall take care

John T

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
RustyFarmall

02-01-2007 06:42:10




Report to Moderator
 Re: Question for John T or others.... in reply to John T, 02-01-2007 06:18:49  
John T, I could've used your expertise here a few days ago. I experienced some electrical problems that just didn't make sense to me, and of course I am not an expert, but when certain things in the house quit working, and then without explanation start working again, well, it gets sort of scary. Long story short, I made a phone call to the expert, he came out, analyzed the problem, fixed it as good as possible, and will be back soon and install a brand new box on the meter pole.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
John T

02-01-2007 12:43:30




Report to Moderator
 Re: Question for John T or others.... in reply to RustyFarmall, 02-01-2007 06:42:10  
Things like loose or corroded connections can wreak havoc as carbon builds up which is resistive n can cause lots of heat. The torque specs and maintenance can be more important then most realize and a loose neutral can reallyyyyy cause problems and weird happenings. Im deeper in design n theory then at troubleshooting, you need a good n experienced electrician for that but I try n help the best I can around here, Tractor DC Ignition n Charging are more my cup of tea then AC but I been around the block a few times and a calf roping n a goat show at the County fair lol

Yall take care now

John T

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Gerald J.

01-31-2007 21:57:21




Report to Moderator
 Re: Question for John T or others.... in reply to B-maniac, 01-31-2007 19:48:20  
The standard starter motor has only series field coils. They carry the same current as the armature. This makes a motor that draws the same current stalled or turning fast but also produces the same torque independent of speed. So when run unloaded the speed can get unreasonably high. So high the armature windings are thrown from the slots jamming the armature. A bigger series motor run without load accelerates like a siren but stops in a fraction of a turn with a large bang.

Anyway the current and the torque is pretty much set by the resistance of the windings in a series motor.

A pure shunt field DC motor works more like an AC motor with a nearly constant speed with varying load. And the armature current rises with an increased load.

Adding shunt coils will increase the magnetic field strength so the armature current can be more effective at producing more torque. Torque is essntially a product of armature current times field strength. You wanted more torque, the shunt fields give you more torque. The also limit the unloaded motor speed and may give the starter a tendency to draw more current when turning slowly. Depends on which field source is strongest, the shunt or the series. With a dual field motor, called a compound motor you often have characteristic of both a series and a shunt motor.

If he put in shunt fields in place of the series fields, the starter can have more torque than with the original series fields, but will draw a whole heap more current from the battery which may make brush and armature life short.
Gerald J.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Janicholson

02-01-2007 06:26:42




Report to Moderator
 Re: Question for John T or others.... in reply to Gerald J., 01-31-2007 21:57:21  
Great answer B,
From Shaded pole, to universal motors, they can be difficult to explain. Marvelous. JimN



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
John T

02-01-2007 12:47:40




Report to Moderator
 Re: Question for John T or others.... in reply to Janicholson, 02-01-2007 06:26:42  
Jim, That Gerald is tough as nails aint he. Take a look over on another board I took a shot at a basic AC motor question and can use a lil help from Gerald n yall, think Im right but no warranty, its been yearsssss since I worked with that stuff, my first job out of Purdue EE school was with Century Electric Motor Co but thats nearly 40 years agooooo ooooo ooo.

Old John T and all



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
[Options]  [Printer Friendly]  [Posting Help]  [Return to Forum]   [Log in to Reply]

Hop to:


TRACTOR PARTS TRACTOR MANUALS
We sell tractor parts!  We have the parts you need to repair your tractor - the right parts. Our low prices and years of research make us your best choice when you need parts. Shop Online Today. [ About Us ]

Home  |  Forums


Copyright © 1997-2023 Yesterday's Tractor Co.

All Rights Reserved. Reproduction of any part of this website, including design and content, without written permission is strictly prohibited. Trade Marks and Trade Names contained and used in this Website are those of others, and are used in this Website in a descriptive sense to refer to the products of others. Use of this Web site constitutes acceptance of our User Agreement and Privacy Policy

TRADEMARK DISCLAIMER: Tradenames and Trademarks referred to within Yesterday's Tractor Co. products and within the Yesterday's Tractor Co. websites are the property of their respective trademark holders. None of these trademark holders are affiliated with Yesterday's Tractor Co., our products, or our website nor are we sponsored by them. John Deere and its logos are the registered trademarks of the John Deere Corporation. Agco, Agco Allis, White, Massey Ferguson and their logos are the registered trademarks of AGCO Corporation. Case, Case-IH, Farmall, International Harvester, New Holland and their logos are registered trademarks of CNH Global N.V.

Yesterday's Tractors - Antique Tractor Headquarters

Website Accessibility Policy