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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

OT: Natural gas vs LPG

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Tx Jim

01-16-2007 10:43:17




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Does anyone know how to compare volume of NG vs LPG. NG is shown in cubic ft. while LPG is gallons and I want to know how they compare $ wise. Thanks,Jim




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Gerald J.

01-17-2007 08:35:21




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 Re: OT: Natural gas vs LPG in reply to Tx Jim, 01-16-2007 10:43:17  
Natural gas is often sold by the therm, 100,000 BTU. Typically its about 1000 btu per cubic foot.

LP gas runs 96,000 btu / liquid gallon according to my reference (LP GAS UTILIZATION HANDBOOK). So to a first approximation, on gallon of LP is one therm.

Used to be LP ran about 4 times natural gas for home use. Natural gas has risen and so has LP but maybe not as fast.

Gerald J.



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farmerjohninpa

01-16-2007 21:06:34




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 Re: OT: Natural gas vs LPG in reply to Tx Jim, 01-16-2007 10:43:17  
a house on propane has an average operating pressure of 11 to 13 inches of water column ( less then 1/2 p.s.i. )

a house on natural gas has an average working pressure of 3 to 5 p.s.i.

orifices are used to convert an appliance from NG to LP !!! orifices for lp are on the average of two thirds smaller then that of a NG orifice. natural gas uses gas meters to measure the amount of nat. gas used in a home, they are notorius to everyone in the gas industry to be out of calibration and not in the publics favor.

a month ago in lancaster county,pa. a house was leveled by a NAT.gas leak. being a new developement of 108 homes, the township had the nat. gas company check all the houses for leaks,, they found 37 leaks and the public was told that they were outside at the meters and were of no threat and should not be concerned.

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cannonball

01-18-2007 04:20:02




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 Re: OT: Natural gas vs LPG in reply to farmerjohninpa, 01-16-2007 21:06:34  
Are you sure that 3 to 5 lbs... should be 3 to 5 inches right...


MAY GOD BLESS THE USA



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dirtdigger

01-16-2007 17:46:43




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 Re: OT: Natural gas vs LPG in reply to Tx Jim, 01-16-2007 10:43:17  
Look at this web site Link It compares any kind of fuel you want from corn to electricity



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buickanddeere

01-16-2007 15:50:17




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 Re: OT: Natural gas vs LPG in reply to Tx Jim, 01-16-2007 10:43:17  
The Family Guy says clean burning Propane is best.



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Ichabod

01-16-2007 15:44:21




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 Natural Gas in reply to Tx Jim, 01-16-2007 10:43:17  
Using Terry's numbers, you are getting 92,000 BTU's for $2.00 with LP, or 46,000 BTU's per dollar and 1,000,000 BTU's for $3.52 worth of natural, or 284,091 BTU's per dollar. At your prices I'd have a gas everything. Do you get some crude oil out of the well too? We just visited some inlaws in Ohio and there are gas wells there. I thought that was cool.

Ichabod



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Tx Jim

01-17-2007 03:35:43




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 Re: Natural Gas in reply to Ichabod, 01-16-2007 15:44:21  
No oil from these NG wells but plenty of salty water. Salt water trucks run 24/7 and I wonder how the drivers are liking the snow and ice? Tx Jim



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RAB

01-16-2007 15:14:51




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 Re: OT: Natural gas vs LPG in reply to Tx Jim, 01-16-2007 10:43:17  
Now then:
When I went to school, the General Gas Equation was

PV = nRT

where P = pressure
V= volume
n = Avagadro"s number (or was it moles?)
R= Ideal Gas Constant
T = Temp

All units would be metric, of course (Pascals, Litres, Kelvin).

Energy content will depend on C___C and C___H bonds ratios, water content and whatever else might be present.
I don"t think we covered much on Btu"s - already gone out of fashion in 1960s.
Used to use Kilocalories, now use Joules. Everything is so much easier in S.I. units.

However, as you can see, you are comparing "apples with oranges" with volumes of liquid and gas fuels (different pressures and therefore volumes). Need to get them at a standard temperature and pressure before you even start to compare energy content, let alone prices. No mention of transport and scrubbing costs or operating costs and profit margins, capital cost of well-head and pipeline etc.

There is much more energy in a C___C bond (none in methane) than in a C___H bond (as in methane)
If I were you I would not worry unless you can do something about it when you know the answer.
Regards, RAB

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Brent in IA

01-17-2007 04:33:52




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 Re: OT: Natural gas vs LPG in reply to RAB, 01-16-2007 15:14:51  
Holy crap, did that bring back the night before a college physics exam nightmare! Back in college I could convert the cooling speed temperature of a horse fly"s fart at the exact moment he met a nuclear powered submarine leaving a California port 300 miles away if the fly was riding on a train at 20 mph leaving a station in Iowa at 3 pm or however those old word problems go....but now I am hard pressed to figure out why my electric bill is so high with 3 teenagers in the house :-) Things you forget when you don"t use then.

By the way, when I was in Junior High in the 70"s we were taught the metric system (SI) in math and in science getting ready for the big transition required by law coming in the 90"s. Metric is a much much easier system to learn and to use. I really hated it when they realized at the last moment that the conversion date for the U.S. was nearing and they changed the law at the last minute. They don"t know how simpler life would have been.

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Tx Jim

01-16-2007 14:08:03




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 Thanks, but in reply to Tx Jim, 01-16-2007 10:43:17  
Thanks for info but I still don't understand exactly. The reason I asked ??? is I'm on a NG well that last month paid me $3.52/1000CF. Here LPG sells for $2.00/gal. If it equals to 7 gallons/100 cf I'm losing. Thanks Tx Jim



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Coloken

01-16-2007 15:40:53




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 Re: Thanks, but in reply to Tx Jim, 01-16-2007 14:08:03  
Go with what Terry said. Divide $3.52 by 92..... about 40 cent of gas will equal the heat of a gal of LPG. Very much approximate. What they charge me is a lot higher than that. Gas BTU varies all over the place..Yes, they do thin it with air if it is richer than they like.



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Kent in KC

01-16-2007 12:11:21




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 Re: OT: Natural gas vs LPG in reply to Tx Jim, 01-16-2007 10:43:17  
It never ceases to amaze me the knowledge of the people that frequent this site.

I get more information here than anywhere else. Well, except for my 17 year old son, who knows everything. (Takes after me when I was his age).



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Janicholson

01-16-2007 12:05:34




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 Re: OT: Natural gas vs LPG in reply to Tx Jim, 01-16-2007 10:43:17  
the following link will take you to a page to learn more. There are differences in the pressure used in the supply pipes and therfore the cubic ft do not match. Prices are fairely comparable per unit heat, Natural gas is not compressed to liquid for transport in consumer vehicles due to pressure and temperature requirements. JimN

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nballen

01-16-2007 12:01:56




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 Re: OT: Natural gas vs LPG in reply to Tx Jim, 01-16-2007 10:43:17  
Using the information that Terry added, you probably want to compare based on $/btu, since (most likely) you are concerned with the energy you can get out of the fuel you buy.

Nathaniel



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Pooh Bear

01-16-2007 11:39:03




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 Re: OT: Natural gas vs LPG in reply to Tx Jim, 01-16-2007 10:43:17  
One cubic foot = 7.48 gallons.
This is for liquid measures like water.
Don't know how it would work for gasses.

Pooh Bear



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nballen

01-16-2007 11:59:29




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 Re: OT: Natural gas vs LPG in reply to Pooh Bear, 01-16-2007 11:39:03  
Volume measurements are independent of the substance measured, so one cubic foot (ft^3) always equals 7.48 gallons.

When measuring gases, the common practice is to "standardize" the gas at 1 atmosphere pressure(atm) (about 14.7 pounds per square inch, absolute at sea level), 60 degrees Farenheit.

For consistency, ft^3 is the most commonly used volume measurement. The amount of gas contained in 1 ft^3, at 1 atm, at 60 deg F is called "1 standard cubic foot, or 1 SCF.

For flow volumes, this is divided by minutes. Typical gas flows are given in SCFM (standard cubic feet per minute) or multiples thereof.

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Terry OH

01-16-2007 11:14:13




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 Re: OT: Natural gas vs LPG in reply to Tx Jim, 01-16-2007 10:43:17  
1 Gal of LP produces 92000 BTUs.
1 CF of natural gas produces 1000 BTUs.
{http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/pubs/ageng/structu/ae1015.htm}



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