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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

ot land rights

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chris sweetland

01-08-2007 16:24:54




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OK Ive had enough of my neighbors and trying to be nice Saturday night i had the state police at my front door because i was moving property lines not true i went out with a friend of mine studying surveying to get his opinion on the property lines. now i could only find the rear pin and some other spots that look like there should be pins so i stuck a stick in the ground as a reference point. now the bar way between the two properties is an old town road my property is on one side and the neighbors is on the other if the road closed (i have to check and see if it closed or became unmaintained) that would mean that both parties own to the middle correct? or since there haven't been pins would the bar way become the property line? let me know what you think thanks Chris

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Rauville

01-09-2007 05:06:03




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 Re: ot land rights in reply to chris sweetland, 01-08-2007 16:24:54  
The ultimate final decision may have to be made by a Judge or a Jury, if the two of you cannot come to agreement.
Friends of mine purchased 800 acres in Nebraska and spent the next 5 years involved in lawsuits, counter-suits and appeals trying to determine property lines. A Judge's ruling which was upheld finally determined that they had to forfeit a sizable piece of their property to the neighbor.
Land disputes seldom work out in both parties favor.

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noncompos

01-08-2007 20:01:18




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 Re: ot land rights in reply to chris sweetland, 01-08-2007 16:24:54  
jdemaris's comments re' reading your and your neighbors legal desc's, that surveys are just professional opinions, registered or not(unless your state happens to have some law or settled Court decisions to the contrary) and that road centerlines may or may not be along property lines are correct. Read John T Country Lawyer's comments on the two road/property threads here very recently, especially the part about these being complicated--very complicated--questions.I would guess the State Police came out on the question of whether you moved an existing survey marker, which is a crime in some places. Your County Surveyors office usually keeps "tax lot" maps, a set of maps of the whole County, to keep the tax records up to date as to who owns how much; these may or may not show where your boundary is in reference to the road, but they're for the County's convenience only, and may or may not be correct on such a point. Your County Surveyors office may also have a set of road records, maps and legal desc's of road centerlines and widths if roads were created by landowners petitioning the County Commissioners or their equivalent. In such cases there's usually a surveyors report as to whether the petitioned location is viable, hearings, the names of petitioners and objectors, etc. In the old days, when roads developed into quagmires or washed out, the maintainers (City, County or sometimes just the grader operator) sometimes just moved it over to better ground; people were usually so happy to have a road nobody objected. Our local weekly, years ago, had a pic of the County Surveyor, 200 feet or so into someones field, pointing (at his feet) to show where the road centerline was originally located. See the comments about vacating roads in one of those recent threads, and remember that some jurisdictions recognise the existence of "underlying easements", that is, road use rights that existed BEFORE the road became any kind of public way, that weren't extinguished by the road becoming public, but went into a kind of dormancy and may well "re-awaken" upon the public use being vacated (extinguished). Oh, yes: the land under County roads, and most older City streets, is generally owned by the adjacent owners to the extent their boundary lies within the road area, but that ownwership is subject to existing roadway and maybe utility rights. Oh yes II:GET LEGAL ADVICE BEFORE DOING ANYTHING RASH.

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John T Country Lawyer

01-08-2007 19:08:47




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 Re: ot land rights in reply to chris sweetland, 01-08-2007 16:24:54  
Chris, First of all Surveyors nor Land Owners nor Attorneys have any legal authority whatsoever to determine disputed property boundaries. When disputes arise theres a well settled and huge volume of law to judicially determine boundaries in cases of dispute.

Surveyors, however, are qualified and competent to render "expert opinions" concerning boundaries which depends most critical upon the starting points, legal descriptions and deeds of record and finally their abilities and the accuray of their survey. Different surveyors could have differing opinions you see, and their "stakes" DO NOT necessarily mean thats the boundary as a strict matter of law.

States differ as to the common and staturoty law regarding this, so I cant say what the law is in your area. Indiana (where I practice) has a statutory method whereby a licensed surveyor can perform whats called a "legal survey" when the proper legal notice is given to adjoining landowners, a survey is conducted and stakes are set, and those boundaries can, if unchallenged and the other statutory requirements met, ripen into the judicially determined boundary. Not sure in your state, consult a local attorney.

Nowwwww wwww in addition to Deeds of record and legal descriptions and roads and whether or not they have been properly abandoned, other issues can come into play to determine any legal boundary such as the law of "adverse possession"

Generally speaking, YES your property could well run to the middle of a certain road, but issues such as if it was an easement conveyed by deed or adverse possession or proper abandonment or eminent domain might affect that general rule.

BOTTOM LINE these issues are complex and can depend on Deeds of record and prior land useage etc etc etc etc plus are also very local THEREFORE even though Im an Attorney, theres not much that can be said on this board by lay persons or myself that can really help you all that much YOU NEED TO CONSULT LOCAL COUNSEL. In the meantime my best free advice is to gather up an abstract of yours and prior deeds (info available AT LOCAL COUNTY COURTHOUSE FREE OF CHARGE EXCEPOT FOR COPIES) of record and check with the local recorder for any surveys that might have been recorded as a public record and it wouldnt hurt to lay claim to where you believe in good faith the lines to be to place the world on notice of your claim of possession BUT DO NOT BREACH THE PEACE!!!!! !!!!! !

Best wishes n God Bless

John T, Attorney at Law in Indiana

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noncompos

01-08-2007 20:10:45




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 Re: ot land rights in reply to John T Country Lawyer, 01-08-2007 19:08:47  
John T: John, your post came on between the time I started typing mine(before supper) and finished it (after supper). I should've had the presence of mind to've rechecked the thread before posting, but didn't. Feel free to critique anything I said or to clarify any points I left ambiguous; two minds are usually better than one. I note that we both felt it adviseable to add a certain cautionary note to our comments.

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John T

01-08-2007 20:16:13




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 Re: ot land rights in reply to noncompos, 01-08-2007 20:10:45  
NO problem ever with me concerning over posts or late or early postings or repeats etc etc I say the more the merrier. Different persons have a different way of explaining things and the more info we can give on a question the better chance we may alllll ll learn something.

Lots of Propery Law questions lately buttttt tt as you well know we cant possibly in a paragraph cover sooooo complex an issue. Theres whole books n volumes n courses to cover what may be asked here lol

Yall take care

John T

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chris sweetland

01-08-2007 18:47:18




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 Re: ot land rights in reply to chris sweetland, 01-08-2007 16:24:54  
the cops around here are bored since the collages are out they were sitting on the dirt roads the other day they never stray off pavement around here, none the less it was a dispute i will get a surveyor in asap i know where a corner pin is and that's about it other than that i believe the deeds were lost in the town hall fire a while back ill have to check thanks guys



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jdemaris

01-08-2007 18:29:34




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 Re: ot land rights in reply to chris sweetland, 01-08-2007 16:24:54  
You didn't mention which came first, the road or the property lines? Read the deeds and follow them back in time if necessary. I've read mine back to 1795. The actual property line does not have to be in middle of the road. Regardless, survey pins - even if found have no legal standing. Neither does a registered/filed survey. It is just a record of a professional opinion. Very often such fights start, and opposing neighbors get different surveyors with different results. Sometimes you wind up with mulitple pins - each set with a different surveyors ID on it. Surveyors make mistakes just like most anyone else - sometimes lots of mistakes. A judge and court - to reach a legal decision will usually attempt to reach a point of mutual agreement between opposing parties in such situations - unless the lines can be proven beyond any reasonble doubt. In regard to the police coming to your door? What for? It's not their job - they work in criminal matters - land disputes are civil matters. If you called the police or sheriff here - about a land dispute - they would not come.

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Chuck Ma

01-08-2007 18:22:46




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 Re: ot land rights in reply to chris sweetland, 01-08-2007 16:24:54  
Chris I could have written your post word for word. I own a small plot in Massachusetts, 14 acres, abuts about 5 different land owners land. All but one owner, my neighbor, has land as open access, but this one neighbor posted her land a couple of years ago. which blocks access to part of a river that also abuts my property. She also claimed the entire discontinued road that seperates one of my lots from her property. I have tried to explain to her that, half is mine and half is hers by law, she still claims the entire discontinued road. I would brush hog and grade the road for the hunters and hikers until she would not let me. I can still brush hog staying on my side. I used to plow her driveway at no charge as she is the mother of my best friend when we we high school and college. He moved 1200 miles away
after college and rarely comes home. I finally understand why he stays away. Sorry for the long post but when I read yours it hit home.
Thanks Chuck

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E.B. Haymakin'

01-08-2007 18:02:20




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 Re: ot land rights in reply to chris sweetland, 01-08-2007 16:24:54  
Survey, like everyone else said, but if that road is between your properties I think that would be good thing. Likely the property line is around the center of the old road. If the local government still holds a public right of way neither of you can claim the property for use some distance from that line. In Alabama our property line may run to the center of public roads, but not always. Even if you own property the public right of way, if still exercised,would move your actual property to the edge of the easement. Most governments obtain these buffer zones from the center of most roads for future expansion. Technically you may not have land between you, and the neighbor. It would be more like you-public right of way-the neighbor from he77. Check with the county government, and consult a lawyer.

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easy1

01-08-2007 16:47:57




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 Re: ot land rights in reply to chris sweetland, 01-08-2007 16:24:54  
I spent the $$$ and got a survey done. If it is important to you, or your neighbors, get it done. And have the neighbors there to walk thru the survey with the surveyer. Get it registered too.



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Walt Davies

01-08-2007 16:46:00




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 Re: ot land rights in reply to chris sweetland, 01-08-2007 16:24:54  
The only legal way to settle the argument is to have the land surveyed and properly marked.
If you can get your neighbor to pay for it or half of it then it will help a lot as the Surveyor will cheat towards who ever pays for the survey to keep the other from complaining.
Surveying is not an exact science right now.

I had a dispute on 80 acres I owned I had it surveyed when I bought it. the neighbor thought that the Gold mine was on his property I told him to get his own survey. He did and lost another 15 ft. should have kept his mouth shut HUH!!!

Walt

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IH2444

01-08-2007 16:40:06




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 Re: ot land rights in reply to chris sweetland, 01-08-2007 16:24:54  
Sounds to me like an official survey will have to be performed to resolve the dispute.



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