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Diesel Fuel Revisited

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New-Gen

12-11-2006 05:18:30

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For those who say the only difference between off road fuel and road fuel is the red dye, guess again. Just try running a tankful or two through an older tractor with a rotary pump and see what happpens.

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nickg

12-11-2006 17:12:05

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Re: Diesel Fuel Revisited in reply to New-Gen, 12-11-2006 05:18:30

I live in southern indiana and we buy are fuel from a co-op. we have both red fuel and road fuel tanks on our farm. Our fuel is also a bio blend in both tanks. Our fuel guy told us that the red fuel has more cetane rating than that of our road fuel. I have used the road fuel before in a pinch in my 4020 my 2377 case ih combine and my new holland tg 255 and some of our other older tractors. They all ran fine but seemed not to have as much umpf. I also know when I bought a disel pick up the ford mechanic and the owners manual said not to run dyed fuel it wasnt good on the fuel system.It sounds to me like diff regions of the country have diff blends, i know here though that road fuel has less sulpher than dyed fuel.

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Dave in Tx

12-11-2006 16:59:57

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Re: Diesel Fuel Revisited in reply to New-Gen, 12-11-2006 05:18:30

For what it is worth, here in central tx having worked for a large contractor with lots of JD engines and farmers with lots of JD engines, for the last 7 or 8 yrs over an area with a 100 mile radius, we have had lots of rotary stanadynes give problems with the rotary throttle sticking. a quart of atf fluid will loosen them right up and may run for six months or 6 hrs without doing it again. I've been reading this for awhile on this for a while on these forums and do know we have had this happen to 20 or 30 different machines, case and jd but all of them with the rotary pump. fuel is just too dry here. will never make me believe otherwise because I also have rebuilt many of these pumps. thanx..Dave

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buickanddeere

12-11-2006 14:49:20

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Re: Diesel Fuel Revisited in reply to New-Gen, 12-11-2006 05:18:30

IaGary and jdemaris have info you need to hear, understand and believe.

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kyhayman

12-11-2006 13:53:34

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Re: Diesel Fuel Revisited in reply to New-Gen, 12-11-2006 05:18:30

Red fuel.... no tax and it can be high sulfur with addition lubricating qualities, but it doesnt have to be. Here it used to be luck of the draw. Fuel from the Somerset refinery used up to 40% refined waste oil. Fuel from Catlettsburg was pre-2006 low sulfur, and from the surplus trade old style high sulfur but it might be 20 years old. Just depended on where it came from. I noticed difference in fuel economy. Local quarry who has air quality issues could tell in their soot monitors. Now the jobber uses the low sulfur from Catlettsburg enriched with soy oil to B20 in the summer and B10 in the winter.

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New-Gen

12-11-2006 09:14:45

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Re: Diesel Fuel Revisited in reply to New-Gen, 12-11-2006 05:18:30

Well gee...guess I just inaginad the problem...guess I really don't know what I'm talking about....but..I coulda SWORE that I had filled that tractor with road fuel, had th enewly rebuilt pump act up, and, now htis is what REALLY baffles me...I coulda SWORE that I put in a good dose of sulphur additive and it took off running right, never to have a problem again. Guess I was wrong....

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IaGary

12-11-2006 16:03:09

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Re: Diesel Fuel Revisited in reply to New-Gen, 12-11-2006 09:14:45

Could have been some foreign material in the fuel and the sulfur helped eliminate it.

But here in Ia #2 diesel is #2 diesel.

Gary

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jdemaris

12-11-2006 11:18:33

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Re: Diesel Fuel Revisited in reply to New-Gen, 12-11-2006 09:14:45

You say the guy from the pump shop "speaks from experience." Does that mean he's seen your machine and heard it run? I was lucky enough to work in two pump shops at two Deere tractor dealerships - so we usually had the trouble machines on site. As far as diaganosing over the phone with only an injection pump in you hands? That's pretty hard to do - and some pump guys (not all) are clueless when it comes to the rest of the tractor, truck, or whatever. Not all diesel pump bench technicians are diesel mechanics. I still haven't heard what model pump you are speaking about, and mounted on what equipment? And, what part of the pump did the pump guy tell you would work better with a sulfur additive? You seem to be taking offense - but I find it equally offensive being told something - that I have 40 years experience with - that ostensibly makes NO sense - not to me, anwyay. It's no secret that low-lube diesel fuel can cause premature wear. In a pickup-truck, it might mean the pump has trouble after 100K miles instead of 175K miles - the low-lube causes excess wear over time. Advance-timing parts, transer pump blades, sometimes some chipping on the cam ring, etc. But - you have stated that your pump ran bad on pump fuel, then got better again with an additive. So, I ask again - what pump, what machine, and what part of the pump is your "experienced" pump guy telling you is the culprit? I am also aware of the problems with colored fuel and dye sensors in newer, electronically controlled pumps - but I assume that is a totally different issue - considering this is an antique tractor forum. In regard to the posts about differences in highway and farm-dyed diesel - it must be a regional thing. I'm in central New York - and our farm-fuel is high sulfur and comes out of the same tank as the home heating oil - right at the Port of Albany. The highway, low-sulur diesel comes from a different tank at the Port. I've read, that in a few years - things will be different - but I'm talking about now. Also - another poster mentioned a flood of Standayne pump-seal problems with Deere stuff, early 90s with pump fuel? I was there, working for Deere and working on injection pumps, I never experienced it. Deere uses the C, DB, JDB, DB2, and DM4 from Stanadyne-Roosamaster - and we always had problems with certain plastic internal parts with ANY fuel - farm or pump. But seals? Other than normal wear, I never saw it.

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massey333

12-11-2006 18:30:06

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Re: Diesel Fuel Revisited in reply to jdemaris, 12-11-2006 11:18:33

Let me clear something up first,The JD reference was because That is what I had first hand info.on.In that time period ALL Implement dealers(JD-IH-A-C) locally had the Stanadyne Product Stacked in front of the parts counters and Service Mangers were warning people about using the low sulfer without the Additive.Ford truck dealers stocked it too.After the seals and gaskets were changed there didn't seem to be any more problems Regardless of the fuel used.I run a Ford 7.3 IDI 250,000 mile with no problems thelast80% of miles on the Stanadyne Add..I never used it in my tractors except when doing Custom Snow work in 0 and less Temp.I don't know of anyone with the Inline pumps only the Rotary having these Problems.

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jdemaris

12-11-2006 20:36:57

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Re: Diesel Fuel Revisited in reply to massey333, 12-11-2006 18:30:06

I heard many of the warnings about the potential problems of low-lube fuel. I also don't doubt that many pumps will have shorter life-spans - but probaly not by much. The Stanadyne pumps have certain wear items that tend to go first, regardless of the fuel used. Wasn't much different around 1973 with gas engines when unleaded gas came into common use and leaded gas started to get phased out. Dealers were stocking their shelves with lead-additive and there were endless warnings about valve guides, valve faces and seats self-destucting. I was working for Deere - and Deere Co. was recommending fuel addives and hardened valve seats. I still have my 1960 Deere 1010 gas tractor, 1949 Case, 1969 Dodge W200 PowerWagon - and none ever got the updated valve train. I've done a few valve jobs over the years - but they wore no faster with the unleaded. With rotary pumps - thin fuel has always been a problem- long before the Federal mandates for low-sulfur - escecially in cold regions and in military use. Stanadyne is the only rotary-pump company that offers an "arctic kit" to help cope with it. That being said - you mentioned your Ford IDI 7.3. I've got one also - a 94 IDI 7.3 turbo (last made before Powerstroke) and also an 85 with a 6.9 diesel. The 94 has 341,000 miles and I fixed the injection pump once because it was leaking. The pump has been off the 85 once - before anything went wrong with it - because I wanted to update it with an EID governor retainer. It has 240,000 miles on it. Also, my 87 6.2 diesel Suburban made it to 520,000 miles with one pump rebuild. I never used a lube-additive in any of them - but I do use a lot of kerosene and Power Service Anti-gel in the winter. But - low-sulfur fuel had not be around long. In reference to the seals Deere was actually having trouble with (not just being warned), I don't know of any here in the Northeast - and I think I would of noticed. I met with Deere engineers once a month and got updated with problems. We did have MANY problems with Stanadyne pumps - but it mostly inferior materials, poor design, and poor quality control - not bad fuel. In fact, we had the same problems back to the early 60s. I kind of wonder what took Stanadyne so long to fix things - but I think I know. Deere's first use of the rotary was in 1960 with the 1010/2010 series. When GM placed a major pump order mid-70s for the Oldsmobile-built 350 diesel - the pumps were routinely self-destructing - and something had to be done. GM was facing a law-suit - and I'm sure GM put pressure on Stanadyne to rectify the situation. Around 1978, all kinds of pump updates started coming out - and most applied to the pumps on the Deere tractors as well. But, the D style pump still wasn't fixed properly until around 1985. Then - 1994 ??? Stanadyne does it again to GM with miserable pump failures with the new electronic pump on the 6.5s. But, that's a different story and has nothing to do with the fuel. Hey - what kind of fuel mileage does your 7.3 get? My 94, with ex-cab, longbed, 4WD, overdrive-automatic, 7.3 IDI turbo and 4.10 axles get a best of around 14.5 on the flat highway at 65 MPH.

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massey333

12-12-2006 04:09:45

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Re: Diesel Fuel Revisited in reply to jdemaris, 12-11-2006 20:36:57

That was 4 Trucks ago.7.3 Non Turbo-4.10-5 speed Man. F-350 4x4.12-13 empty,10 loaded grossing 30-35000.I usally only keep a truck 150-200,000 Mi.which is 3 yrs.Apox.

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New-Gen

12-11-2006 11:34:14

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Re: Diesel Fuel Revisited in reply to jdemaris, 12-11-2006 11:18:33

Stanadyne pump (The tractor is not home right now and I'' too stupid to remember the model# of the pump)

On a John Deere 4020, 1971 model (It's not the origional style smalller pump...I'm that smart)

Problem was in govenor.

Shop has been in business since the early 70's, and do complete diesel service, not just pumps.(Probably not enough credentials, but that's all we have here)

All I know is what I experienced....sorry to have tried ot participate in such a hi-tech discussion with my obviously inferior level of intelligence and limited experience and mechanical knowledge.

Does this reply satisfy you?

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jdemaris

12-11-2006 14:30:55

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Re: Diesel Fuel Revisited in reply to New-Gen, 12-11-2006 11:34:14

I sense a note of sarcasm - but it's kind of hard to tell, for sure, from here. Let me get this straight. You opened this thread with an implication that using low-sulfur pump diesel is going to cause problems in our rotary injection pumps - am I correct so far? You also said that after suffering such a problem, you later corrected it with a fuel additive. I don't see where anyone even hinted at you suffering from an "inferior level of intelligence" as you put it. You are the only person that mentioned it. I will induct from your comments that you really believe you know something that some of us don't, and we are too pig-headed to acquiesce and listen. Going by what you've stated - Stanadyne DB or JDB pumps will not run properly with low-sulfur diesel fuel. That is incorrect. If that were true, Stanadyne would be in quite a mess since the same basic pump you have on your 4020 is also used on Chevy and Ford pickup trucks. Also on Deere, Allis Chalmers, Ford, IH, Oliver, Cletrac, et.al. A 4020 uses the following pumps:
CBC633-1AL, CBC633-18AL, CBC633-24AL, CBC633-28AL, DBGVC633-1AJ,
DBGVC633-3AJ, DBGVC633-5AJ, JDB633AL2402, JDB633AL2404, JDB633AL2719,
and JDB633AL2721. Of those pumps, the little round pumps are the CBC models. All the others i.e. DB and JDB - like you have - originally had a plastic weight retainer ring. It has ALWAYS had a high failure rate - with any fuel - in tractors and cars and pickup trucks. It sounds like your 4020 had the CBC pump originally. Parts were discontinued for it early 80s and Deere sold change-over kits to install a JDB pump. The plastic ring that often fails was originally plastic, then changed to what Stanadyne called "Elasticast", then changed again to "Pellathane", and finally - late 1985 - it was eliminated and a new style "elastomer insert drive" was used instead (EID). Most pump shops routinely update the older pumps to the EID assembly - but some cut corners and do not. It adds $30 to the job and maybe makes the pump last too long. Again - it has always been a problem with any fuel. And, once broken, you don't correct it by adding a fuel additive. I don't doubt you've had pump and/or engine problems. And I don't rule out the possibility that you had a problem with a newly rebuilt pump - and an additive made it run better. But - if that is the case - the additive is serving as a "Band-aid" to a problem. If that JDB pump was repaired corrrectly, it would run fine on pump fuel - or heating oil. Why do you suppose there are thousands of those pumps out there, running every day on low-sulfur fuel and not self-destructing?

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New-Gen

12-11-2006 09:48:53

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Re: Diesel Fuel Revisited in reply to New-Gen, 12-11-2006 09:14:45

Although I don't reply much, I have followed your...um..."adventures" for a long time...you seem to go about things a lot like I do (you can take that any way you want..LOL)...but trust me on this one...there were no other issues, and the shop that rebuilt the pump and recommended the additive was speaking from experience. Maybe, as someone else said down below, it's a regional thing. Look over on Cowman's board, I posted in a little more detail.

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Allan In NE

12-11-2006 10:01:00

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Re: Diesel Fuel Revisited in reply to New-Gen, 12-11-2006 09:48:53

Yes I know and I read it top to bottom.

But, it isn't worth getting all red in the face over.

You're getting mad and calling us all a bunch of idiots and it is nothing more than morning conversation for goodness sake.

Now, and this is just for what it is worth, okay?

I've never, ever ran into a pump shop that ever made a mistake. They are totally infallible. The problem is ALWAYS the owner's fault. Always. Just ask 'em. They do not have comebacks. Ever.

Allan

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New-Gen

12-11-2006 10:09:33

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Re: Diesel Fuel Revisited in reply to Allan In NE, 12-11-2006 10:01:00

Where do you see where I called anybody an idiot?

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Allan In NE

12-11-2006 12:23:16

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Re: Diesel Fuel Revisited in reply to New-Gen, 12-11-2006 10:09:33

I was paraphrasing; you were fairly strong opinionated over across the street.

I dunno, maybe we did come down on ya a little hard, shouldn�t have done that I guess.

I'm just saying, I sure wouldn't lump this lube-quality-fuel issue and that pump re-builder�s recommendations all in the same paragraph.

He was covering his southern exposure and I�ll just bet you would have had the same �fortunate� result from adding peanut oil and Italian salad dressing to your fuel.

Bottom line is tho, sure glad your tractor is running okay.

Allan

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Allan In NE

12-11-2006 09:36:33

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Re: Diesel Fuel Revisited in reply to New-Gen, 12-11-2006 09:14:45

Aw heck,

I get my feathers ruffled 'bout three times a day too. :>)

What was this tractor doing with that 'newly rebuilt' pump and could it have been something that consequently just happened to cure itself? Like perhaps an air issue or something?

Just don't think pouring snake oil in the fuel is gonna fix anything, but like I say, I'm wrong 'bout 95% of the time anyway. :>)

Allan

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paul

12-11-2006 08:33:23

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Re: Diesel Fuel Revisited in reply to New-Gen, 12-11-2006 05:18:30

New laws are creating new diesel blends, which I can't keep up with.

The only _real_ difference between on-road & off-road is the color & the taxes paid.

If your supplier is doing different things with additive packages, that is a local thing, and rather rare.

Here in Minnesota all diesel fuel of any kind now has 2% biofuel (soybean oil). That takes care of the lubricity. Or so we are told. So in my state, additives shouldn't make a difference, hi, mid, or low sulfur content.

At least, we are told. Probably be a year or 2 before anyone knows for sure.

I use my share of additive in the cold months. Can't be without.

--->Paul

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TomTX

12-11-2006 07:41:47

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Re: Diesel Fuel Revisited in reply to New-Gen, 12-11-2006 05:18:30

NewGen, that is why I ALWAYS add a diesel fuel additive in the barrel/tank, when filling. I usually use Power Service, which you can get to clean, remove moisture, prevent gelling, lub the pump, raise the cetane rating by several numbers, etc. I always get dumped on here on the board when I mention this; but I am 65 years old and have NEVER had a pump rebuild, never an injector failure, never had fuel gelled up, never had a filter clog, etc. I use one quart per 50 gallons year round. I had rather spend the money up front, rather than cry around the coffee shop when the repari bills come due. Tom

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Bob

12-11-2006 07:21:46

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Re: Diesel Fuel Revisited in reply to New-Gen, 12-11-2006 05:18:30

NewGen,

You must have some fussy NewGens!

My 4020 (with Stanadyne rotary pump) has burned Premium #2 farm fuel, cheap #2 farm fuel, #1 heating oil, both #1 and #2 heating oil, #1 and #2 taxed road fuel, and straight kerosene (in BITTER weather), and never whimpered.

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12-11-2006 06:58:11

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Re: Diesel Fuel Revisited in reply to New-Gen, 12-11-2006 05:18:30

The ONLY physical differance between them is the dye in the fuel. Why they have on road and off road fuel? with the off road fuel, you do not have to pay the motor fuel tax.

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sd pete

12-11-2006 06:30:13

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Re: Diesel Fuel Revisited in reply to New-Gen, 12-11-2006 05:18:30

In emergencies when i needed some fuel i have used a tank of road fuel in 856 560 806 and ford 9700 and M gleaner and the old ladies burned it just fine. but didnt like paying the extra money. and dont do it very often.

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jddriver

12-11-2006 06:17:49

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Re: Diesel Fuel Revisited in reply to New-Gen, 12-11-2006 05:18:30

Off road and on road dont have nothin to do with it.It is all new fuel and the lack of sulphur.Our fuel man has recomended running an addittive or soyblend fuel.The new fuel will not make the same output as the other fuel does.IMHO Steve

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Allan In NE

12-11-2006 06:06:13

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Re: Diesel Fuel Revisited in reply to New-Gen, 12-11-2006 05:18:30

Been doing that for years. And in both directions. Absolutely nothing "happens".

Allan

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IaGary

12-11-2006 05:24:04

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Re: Diesel Fuel Revisited in reply to New-Gen, 12-11-2006 05:18:30

What does happen?

When we blend #1 for winter what are we getting?

Gary

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Dean Barker

12-11-2006 07:55:26

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Re: Diesel Fuel Revisited in reply to IaGary, 12-11-2006 05:24:04

IAGary--Is Arctic Premium available in your area; No 2 that is good down to 30 below zero. I think it is made by the Koch refinery in the Quad cities area. It normally is only a couple of cents more a gallon than #2.

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New-Gen

12-11-2006 05:41:14

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Re: Diesel Fuel Revisited in reply to IaGary, 12-11-2006 05:24:04

What happenned to me (twice, I hate to admit), was that the govenor mechanism malfunctioned due to there not being enough lubricity in the un dyed road fuel. In the first case, the pump was due for a rebuild anyway, but the second time it was on an almost new one. A heavy dose of sulphur additive solved the problem that time.

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jdemaris

12-11-2006 06:19:42

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What? Please explain in reply to New-Gen, 12-11-2006 05:41:14

I'd like to hear more details. What engine, what type and vintage of pump, and what parts specifically failed? I worked in a pump shop - dealing mostly with Roosamaster/Stanadyne and CAV pumps - and you've got me stumped. Pre-1986 built Stanadyne D series are known for the plastic weight retainer falling apart - it's a vibration dampener for the governor weights. The problem has nothing to do with lubricosity - although the presence of alcohol or water in fuel has been blamed for shortening its life. Stanadyne changed the type of plastic in the ring three times before giving up on it and going over to the EID instead. The older Stanadyne/Roosamaster C series often had problems with the rack and pinion gears wearing out in the governor/throttle - but again it has nothing to do with low lube. I have never experienced a situation such as you describe - where low lube fuel somehow screws up the governor and then adding lube later corrects it. Please elaborate. I have seen accelerated overall parts wear - over time - with very thin fuels. Our military had, and still has miserable problems with pump failures in Iraq with GM 6.2 and 6.5 diesels - but that's a totally different story - much due to using A1 Russian tank fuel and high heat. But, the failures they are having - are permanent - they don't self-correct by adding sulfur or lube. I realize that you haven't mentioned what make of pump. Stanadyne is the orignal and the rest are licensed copies (except for AMBAC). I own two machines with AMBAC rotary pumps (AC HD6s), 18 trucks with Stanadyne DB2 rotary pumps, 2 Volkswagen Jetta diesels with Bosch VE rotary pumps, 2 Chevy Chevette diesels with Diesel Kiki VE-type rotary pumps, and an 85 Isuzu P'UP diesel truck with a diesel Kiki rotary pump. Also a few Deere, Case, IH, Ford and AC tractors with Roosamaster/Stanadyne DB rotary pumps. They've all had pump fuel run through them and not one has had the sort of problem you've describe.

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massey333

12-11-2006 07:45:08

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Re: What? Please explain in reply to jdemaris, 12-11-2006 06:19:42

To give a diff.answer,back in the early-mid 90s when the change over was made,if the wholesaler only had 1 tank he put the dye in the low sulf. and sold it as off road.Most (not all)of his customers with Stanidyne pumps had SEAL(Not mech.failures),That is why Stanidyne came out with their Lub.product.The local JD dealership problely put 50-100 new SEALs in the first few yrs..Gary,our suppler still has Seperate tanks for High and low sulfer fuels and will in the future with Off road becoming Low Sulfer Dyed and the ULTRA Low becoming Highway.It isn't the sulfer but the refining process that causes the Lub.problem and hopefully it won't happen this time.I have been running B-20 on and off road fuel going on two years and am Happy(??).Your Question on mixing #2 makes Sh***.That is only my take on it from Having to buy it(50-50) in an Emergency in the Dakotas and Mt..(low lost power.)

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Jay (ND)

12-11-2006 09:20:16

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Re: What? Please explain in reply to massey333, 12-11-2006 07:45:08

You are exactly right - it was the refining process itself, not the lack of sulfur.

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IaGary

12-11-2006 06:16:53

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Re: Diesel Fuel Revisited in reply to New-Gen, 12-11-2006 05:41:14

The supplier I buy from sells both.

The offroad dyed fuel is the exact same fuel with as the road fuel with only the dye added.

Every dealer in eastern Iowa goes to the same pipeline terminal to load fuel except for BP.

All companies are selling the same fuel.

Some companies may be putting an additive package in at there holding site.

My dealer puts in no additive only dye at the pipeline.

My dealer sells over a 1,000,000 gals. a year to farmers and constuction equipment customers as well as trucks on the road and has no complaints.

Were all burning the same fuel.

Gary

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Jay (ND)

12-11-2006 07:02:03

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Re: Diesel Fuel Revisited in reply to IaGary, 12-11-2006 06:16:53

It does depend on your location on what's available. Presently in North Dakota there are all three available. There is the new ultra-low sulfur available in both clear and red, for off-road use. There is also the old standard low-sulfur diesel available in both clear and red. And there is still high sulfur fuel available in red.

So in most cases, yes, it's only the dye that makes the difference, but not always.

Jay

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New-Gen

12-11-2006 09:24:44

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Re: Diesel Fuel Revisited in reply to Jay (ND), 12-11-2006 07:02:03

Yep. Guess I was wrong in thinking I knew more about what goes on in my toolshed in my county than the tractor gurus on here...

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Jay (ND)

12-11-2006 09:44:13

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Re: Diesel Fuel Revisited in reply to New-Gen, 12-11-2006 09:24:44

I don't think I said a thing about your pump or tractor. I'm not suggesting anything, but there could be a lot of other culprits to your "fuel problem" than lack of sulfur.

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RustyFarmall

12-11-2006 06:47:48

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Re: Diesel Fuel Revisited in reply to IaGary, 12-11-2006 06:16:53

IaGary, thank you for that info. You laid it out in black and white, just the way it is.

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