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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

diesel fuel

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Scott KY

10-29-2006 19:27:53




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Since the diesel fuel we buy now is formulated for less pollution, is there a sulfur additive available for the older diesels? Anyone have any recommendations?




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dej(JED)

10-30-2006 09:57:25




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 Re: diesel fuel in reply to Scott KY, 10-29-2006 19:27:53  
Sulfur has been used for years as an antiwear additive in oils. Sulfur removal from diesel does cause active sulfurs to be left behind and that has to be passivated with an additive.



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Jim Johnson

10-30-2006 05:44:47




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 Re: diesel fuel in reply to Scott KY, 10-29-2006 19:27:53  
You need to check with your supplier. They haven't quit making the other diesel fuel, they still make it for off road. Your supplier can still get the other diesel with red dye in it if he chooses to.



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jdemaris

10-30-2006 05:28:46




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 Re: diesel fuel in reply to Scott KY, 10-29-2006 19:27:53  
There is no absolute correlation between sulfur content and lubricosity. But, most diesel fuel refined in this country - does result in a lower lube rating with low-sulfur fuel. The new 2007 fuel has a minimum lubricosity rating that comes with a general statement - assuring that it is fine for all diesels. But . . . that is based on some metal-parts wear tests where X amount of wear is permitted and deemed acceptable. So - e.g. - your rotary injection pump might have lasted 30,000 engine hours with the older fuel, but might only last 10,000 hours with the new fuel. They are calling that acceptable - but - more important - do you? I figure it is cheap insurance to add lube or use off-road fuel - as long as it retains it's lube qualities - but in some areas - it will not. The new diesels are using particulate filters in the exhaust system - kind of analogous to catylictic converters - so the older diesel fuel creates the same kind of problem as did leaded gas back when converters first came out. They will plug up.
Most diesel companies have completely pulled out of the car-market in the US after 2007 - since meeting the new specs. is not cost-effective. From what I last read - only Mercedes will keep making a diesel car for all 50 states - and - their car has two fuel tanks to be legal in California - the extra tank carrying a chemical additive that must be injected along with the diesel. For larger vehicles, e.g. SUVs, trucks, etc. - GM has a new diesel that - once again, they are making themselves and they are dropping the Japanese Isuzu Duramax. It is over 300 horse and 500 ft. lbs. of torque and they say it will meet the new specs - but the rest - I think - is still a corporate secret. If you want to search - there are test-specs ad nausem - about wear over time with different fuels and additives. Seems to me - that the easiest approach is just pick one that has been proven to work - e.g. Power Service. Many bio-fuels have also been tested - more overseas than here - and many also have lube problems. Overseas, Canola oil is a common additive to bring up the lube quality.

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Luke S

10-30-2006 08:36:03




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 Re: diesel fuel in reply to jdemaris, 10-30-2006 05:28:46  
jdemaris, I am a Chevrolet and Dodge dealer, and I can tell you for a fact GM is not dropping the Duramax engine. It is being refined for Jan-1-07 to meet the new standards, but it is in no way being dropped.



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jdemaris

10-30-2006 10:41:59




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 Re: diesel fuel in reply to Luke S, 10-30-2006 08:36:03  
I looked around a bit - and I don't know where I read the specific article that stated the anticipated end of production for the Isuzu Duramax in approx. four years. I just found a few related articles mentioning the new diesel that GM will be making - but nothing specific as it relates to heavy pickups and the Duramax. When I read it - I had no reason for saving it - but I now wish I did. Also - I guess you cannot assume something is true just because a corporation issues a press release. AS I recall - didn't GM announce the end of production for the Corvette a few years back? And, after many investors rushed to buy the last ones coming off the production line - GM said - oh gee - we changed our minds. Here a few news articles:

MILFORD, Mich. (AP) -- General Motors Corp. (GM) said Thursday that after 2009
it will introduce a new V-8 turbo-diesel that improves engine-fuel efficiency by 25% for
North American light-duty trucks. The premium V-8 diesel is expected to maintain improved fuel efficiency compared with
gasoline engines that produce similar power. The new engine will take up the same space as a
small-block V-8 gasoline engine. Tom Stephens, GM's group vice president for powertrain, predicted more use of diesel engines
in smaller vehicles as the company works to make its cars and trucks more fuel efficient. He
said the trick with diesels is getting them to meet emissions standards while at the same time
producing them at a cost people will pay. He would not predict what percentage of vehicles would be powered by diesels in the future as
opposed to hybrids and conventional internal-combustion engines. "It's really dictated by the customer," he said as the company showed off its engine and
transmission technology at its proving grounds northwest of Detroit. Company officials would not reveal the size of the new diesel, saying only that it would be larger
than 3.3 liters and smaller than the 6.6-liter diesel GM uses in heavier trucks. GM also announced that the 6.6-liter engine now meets new federal emissions standards set to
go into effect Jan. 1 and even more stringent requirements coming in 2010. The same
pollution-control technology, which involves a catalyst that oxygenates emissions and a filter that
burns up particulates, will be used on the smaller diesel, the company said. "The tailpipes, you can put your finger in them and you won't come out with carbon particles on
your fingers. They're that clean," said Gary Arvan, GM's chief engineer on the 6.6-liter
emissions-reduction project. The world's No. 1 auto maker said the engine will produce 13% less carbon dioxide than
traditional gasoline engines. Detroit-based GM said it currently sells more than one million diesel
engines a year.

General Motors Corp. today unveiled a sophisticated new V8 diesel engine that reduces fuel
consumption 25%, produces up to 360 horsepower and meets all upcoming emissions
regulations.

The engine goes into production on a light-duty pickup truck sometime after 2009, when the
United States will institute what are expected to be the most stringent diesel emissions of any
country.

The new turbodiesel was developed to fit several different vehicle families, said Charles Freese
V, GM executive director of diesel engineering. It fits into an engine compartment the same size
as GM s current small-block V8, which is used in vehicles ranging from the Chevrolet Corvette
sports car to the huge Cadillac Escalade ESV luxury SUV.

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jdemaris

10-30-2006 10:09:01




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 Re: diesel fuel in reply to Luke S, 10-30-2006 08:36:03  
My information comes from a General Motor's press-release of some sort. Target date - according to GM for the new engine is 2009. So, you as a dealer - am telling me one thing, and GM, as a corporation - had released information that seems to confict. I'll look at my browser history and see if I can find the link to the info. It didn't seem surprising to me though. GM has been up and down with their financial interests in Subuaru and Isuzu - for years - and GM has had many other diesel engines being used in Europe.

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Luke S

10-30-2006 12:13:35




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 Re: diesel fuel in reply to jdemaris, 10-30-2006 10:09:01  
You are partially correct. What those press releases refer to is a new engine that will be able to be put in the 1500 series pick-ups, as well as tahoe's, suburbans, yukon's, escalade's and the like. It will be smaller than the current 6.6 Duramax. GM is waaayyyy to heavily invested in Duramax to walk away from it. Ford and DaimlerChrysler are also planning light duty diesels for their smaller trucks and suvs by 2009-2010.

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dej(JED)

10-30-2006 04:53:56




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 Re: diesel fuel in reply to Scott KY, 10-29-2006 19:27:53  
The removal of sulfur to <15 ppm levels is in
on the road fuels only. Additive are added at the loading rack though, so there shouldn't be a problem. 5% Bio will also add additional lubricity. I run a fuels testing lab and tend to think I am more up to date than most people, but you guys are right on the money.



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Chris Young

10-30-2006 03:13:04




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 Re: diesel fuel in reply to Scott KY, 10-29-2006 19:27:53  
I went to the Dodge dealership to buy a new Cummins truck and the sales person told me that all (dodge, Ford and Chevy) new 2007 diesel trucks are biodiesel only and will not run on diesel. Have you seen the new stickers on the Diesel pumps at the gas stations? They also told me that all 2008 gas engines will be ethinal only. I'm not sure I beleave this but I bought biodiesel stocks and I did not order a new truck. I think I'll wait to see what happens first. Chris Hotchkiss, CO

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Luke S

10-30-2006 08:34:31




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 Re: diesel fuel in reply to Chris Young, 10-30-2006 03:13:04  
Chris, your salesman didn't know what he was talking about. In actuality, the new diesels will only run on anywhere from 5%-20% Biodiesel, depending on which engine it is. Any more than that and the Biodiesel starts to do strange things at the 23,000lbs. plus line pressure on high pressure common rail fuel systems. As far as the ethanol is concerned automakers are making more products that will use it, but I'd say less than 10-15% of total production is E85 compaptible vehicles, and even the E85 vehicles will still run regular gas, just not the other way around.

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TomTX

10-30-2006 02:40:22




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 Re: diesel fuel in reply to Scott KY, 10-29-2006 19:27:53  
Scott, you do not want to put in a "sulpher addditive" since sulpher is bad for any diesel engine. The problem comes when the refinery removes the sulpher it also removes the lubricity of the diesel. You can use APS (Power Service) brand of DFA (diesel fuel additive) at the rate of 1 quart per 50 gallons of diesel. I use the one which says "Diesel Kleen Plus Cetane Boost" which comes by gallon or by quart. I treat all fuel in the container as I fill the container, at the rate of 1 part additive to 200 parts diesel (1 quart per 50 gal). This lubs the injection pump, cleans the injectors, removes moisture, raises the cetane, prevents gelling, and all sorts of other stuff I can't think of right now. I have been doing this to every drop of diesel burned in both my tractors for the last 8 years, year round. It costs me about $5 per 50 gallons of fuel, BUT I have not had a pump worked, an injector off, had to clean a tank, or any fuel problems whatsoever. You can buy the APS at Walley World, Tractor Supply, or about anywhere. Tom

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MSD

10-30-2006 19:34:10




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 Re: diesel fuel in reply to TomTX, 10-30-2006 02:40:22  
The local Flying J truck stop uses at least 5 tankers of fuel a day. At least that is how many I have counted going by my place 2 miles from the truck stop in a single day. With all the trucks fueling there, if there was such a problem going on, wouldn't you be hearing complaints from the truckers. I never see them taking any additives to their trucks when they leave the pay counter. It must be working for them and they put on more miles than most of us ever will.

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e

10-29-2006 20:03:16




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 Re: diesel fuel in reply to Scott KY, 10-29-2006 19:27:53  
I switch to running 5% bio and noticed my equipment ran much smoother. Running bio should be all you need to do.



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msb

10-29-2006 19:43:15




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 Re: diesel fuel in reply to Scott KY, 10-29-2006 19:27:53  
5% soy diesel is all you need for the lubricity that the new fuels don't have with the very low sulfur content.You can use Standedyne diesel fuel additive, but it isn't necessary with 5% Bio Diesel



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Brad in WI

10-29-2006 20:11:50




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 Re: diesel fuel in reply to msb, 10-29-2006 19:43:15  
So now the fuel that I purchase for my Farmall MD will not have enough lubrication in my fuel system with the new sulfer regulations. Would adding Power Service take care of that problem. Where can a guy get the biodiesel from?



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