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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

Errent cars, fences, etc revisited

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NC Wayne

10-27-2006 20:36:31




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Just read yesterdays post concerning the mentioned topic. I realize that a large part of any accident, and what most people are seeking, would be the person responsible actually claiming responsibility. Even so creating something you know is inherently unsafe, to damage their vehicle, to insure that claim, shouldn't be an issue when to deciding what action to take to protect your property. Through all the posts one thing I noticed that everyone missed, no matter what their point of view, was installing a proper barricade. There were discussions about the dangers of a 'regular' fence, to the extreems of railroad iron set in concrete, etc but no mention of simply using a standard guardrail or even a cable setup like some states use. If the value of what your protecting, be it a crop or livestock of some sort, is that high then the expense to put in a proper, safe barricade should be insignificant. if your worried about the person hitting it sticking around, tell me this, how many highway acidents involving vehicles hitting standard guardrails and those cable setups have you seen where the vehicle was driavable after a run in with them? I would almost bet you the vehicle won't be going anywhere once it hit. Thing is if your using the same stuff the state and Feds use to protect motorists a lawyer would have a hard time suing you for using a proper barricade without setting a precidient which could then make the goverment liable for damages incured from the same "protective devices" they install...Personally I don't think the government would want that can of worms opened...Just my .02

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Hurst

10-28-2006 14:34:37




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 Re: Errent cars, fences, etc revisited in reply to NC Wayne, 10-27-2006 20:36:31  
I don't know if you have ever seen the road crews put in the guard rails on the interstate, but there is a lot of equipment involved in putting in a guard rail system and having it anchored properly. And the cable system is a VERY BAD way to stop a car. It used to be the main rail system on the national highways until the government started figuring out the cable would cut through the cars and if going fast enough, the people in the cars like a hot knife through butter. That is why you don't see many cable barriers up, esp on major highways. The only place I have seen them has been on mountain roads. I was the one who was talking about the rail road irons, and while I have never seen one hit yet (like I said they are there to stop people who miss the corner completely) I forgot to mention one set that we had also protected a house that was built on a corner. To be honest, I would rather have the person driving like an idiot get injured by the railroad iron than kill someone sleeping in a house at night. It may sound crude, but there is a lot higher risk of someone dying in that house than in the car that hits the rail road iron. Our of the other ones, two of them also prevent the car from going into a drainage system under a road which otherwise would be a good 3-4 foot drop off into hard dirt. Honestly, we cannot afford to put in a guard rail system. We have done a lot to keep our workers safe (as they have to cross the road by foot with horses many times a day to get from barn to barn) and the drivers. We have in the past few years posted 2 warning signs and had the city and county change the speed limit through one corner to a 25 mph from a 55 and had them come set up a speed trap to catch the idiots who fly through there. I am sure there is a way that they can sue us, but you know what, they can sue us just as easily if they get hurt from running their car into a telephone pole behind one of these rails, or into a drop off, or a 80 year old tree behind another set of those rails. Basically, if someone ever does sue, it will be the sorriest thing as those barriers were put there to protect them and our livestock. They are not giant spikes that will impale the car, they are just there to stop a car from running off the road really far. They are a good 3 ft from the edge of the road. If someone was going to sue us over those barriers, they would probably sue us over any barrier we put up. Its a risk that we have had to assume as the traffic picks up on the road. The good thing is that most of the people who run through the fence are all illegal immigrants, which greatly reduces the chances of being sued.

Hurst

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John S-B

10-28-2006 15:16:23




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 Re: Errent cars, fences, etc revisited in reply to Hurst, 10-28-2006 14:34:37  
I believe they have come out with a new cable system in the last year or two that is supposed to be much better.



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HAPPY DEERE

10-28-2006 12:26:39




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 Re: Errent cars, fences, etc revisited in reply to NC Wayne, 10-27-2006 20:36:31  
I wouldnt mind it so much if people would just stick around



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jdemaris

10-28-2006 06:14:35




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 Re: inherently unsafe? in reply to NC Wayne, 10-27-2006 20:36:31  
And . . . who decides what is "inherently unsafe" as you put it? If a government entity creates a public road, or widens an existing road to promote faster traffic - shouldn't it be them that takes responsibility for whatever safe clearance - or dumb-bell landing zone is needed on the sides of that road? Seems this is usually the case with large highways. But - small roads that exist over private property are a different story. No matter what precautions ARE taken, or are NOT taken, people often drive at what they perceive as "safe" - this determination often based on the wrong criteria. For example. A dairy farmer near me - has barns and house on both sides of a town road, He owns the road - the town/public only has a right-of-way over his property. He has many pieces of equipment parked along that road - tractors, implements, etc.- all on his property. Past few years - new people moving in have complained - e.g. road too narrow, road should be paved, more salt should be used in winter, etc. Town came in and widened the road - which was illegal (without owner's permission) but the farmer did not want to make waves. Then people starting driving faster than before, and more complaints evolved. Some people said they were worried about sliding on winter ice and perhaps crashing into one of those tractors. So -then the Town contacted the farmer - and said he was wide open to a law-suit if someone did crash. To his credit - he said that perhaps the people should just drive slower, as other's had done for many years. So - that's where things are for now. It seems - if I understand you correctly - that the Town bears little responsibility for altering/creating roads that invite faster travel. I do not agree. I've gone through the same on my property. But - in my case - the Town illegally widened the road across my property - and I took my dozer and backhoe - and put the dirt back. I also replanted a few trees. I was then threatened with Eminent Domain - which may, or may not happen in the future. Also, the winter snow plow truck/driver and summer dirt-grader both have a habit of running the plow to very edge of the road, clipping the tree trunks, which ultimately kills the trees. When dead, they get removed, road widened, and the process starts all over again - and the road gets wider and wider. I parked large pieces of equipment on that road-edge - to stop the process. What I am calling road-edge - is actually over 10 feet from where the legal right-of-way is supposed to be. In my situation, I live on an extremely steep, winding, single-lane dirt road that used to be closed every winter - i.e. a "seasonal road" which was fine with me. Even when conditions were good - to be safe you needed to drive very slow. But - ever since the Town started attempts to widen it - people drive faster. And, since they started plowing it all winter - more and more get stuck or drive off the road. I pulled three people out last winter. The Town's "road improvements" have resulted in many more accidents, not less. My point here - is - many so-called attempts of road-improvement have ultimately resulted in more accidents and people driving like idiots - their attitude often being - if anything goes wrong - it's everyone's else's fault and not their's. Again - I disagree. General highway law throughout this country states that a driver is responsible for driving only as fast as conditions allow. But - in reality, personal responsibility seems to mean little now-adays.

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massey333

10-28-2006 12:37:32




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 Re: inherently unsafe? in reply to jdemaris, 10-28-2006 06:14:35  
Not to appear overly stupid or naive,but you and a few others keep saying YOU own the road.The only way that is possible is to be in a Subdivison or on a road that was LEGALY Abandoned by the Gov.Whatever.Yes you pay taxes to the Middle or Total if both sides but the Gov.whatever has a legal Easment(right a way) for so many feet from the center of the road to whatever.Can be 25 to100+ ft.from the centerline.They can do whatever they Choose in that Width without Our permission.If you know something diff.Iwill listen and maybe learn something New.

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jdemaris

10-28-2006 18:13:31




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 No, you're wrong . . . in reply to massey333, 10-28-2006 12:37:32  
You are wrong. I'm not sure if you failed to read my post - or DID read it and disagree. I am pretty well read on public highway law - at least in New York State. I learned a long time ago to keep my mouth shut until I know what I'm talking about. I've studied current case-law - mostly out of necessity since I've fought a few land-use cases in court - and won.
Again - I have not researched the law in other states - except for Florida and Michigan. If you own land - and it's on your deed, and your name is on the tax-map-parcel - and you pay taxes on that land - then you own it - period. Much of what you said - is - basically rediculous (no insult intended). A public entity - e.g. a town, county, or state - can have a right-of-way across your land. That means - just what it connotes - a right of passage - an easement - NOT ownership. There ARE roads that are owned by governments - and when that is the case - it is no secret. It is deeded, it shows on the tax map with their name on it and not your's. For example - in the town I live in - in central New York State - there are over 200 roads - of which - the State of New York owns one, the County owns two, the Town owns two, and ALL the rest are on private property with public right-of-ways. The ONLY two roads that the Town actually owns - are in new subdivions. So - that is the direct opposite to what you stated. This is common - because often - subdivions get proposed to town boards - and developers often are in hopes that the Town will pay and maintain the new roads. You seem to mixing the terms - "ownership" with "easement." They are totally different things and are NOT mutally exclusive. Now - in regard to an easement - which is another word for right-of-way. It can be given, purchased, or more-or-less taken over time - and it is then legally called an "easement by prescription." A town CAN have and easement with a 25', 50', or whatever width - but it has to be in writing. In New York - the highway superintendant of each town, is required every year to hand in a road inventory to the county - and the county sends them to the state. The town road inventory must show every road the town claims to have control over along with exact measurements of widths, lengths, etc. of owned roads and public easement roads. Some roads - actually the majority of roads in my area - became public roads by "highway by prescription." That has specific legal meaning. It means that - in most cases - the town ONLY has the right to maintain the area of road that is actually driven on - and that is all. Do an Internet search for "highway by prescription" and you will find hundreds of links to court case documents and highway law info - all over the United States. Now - in reality - what happens is - these types of roads get a little wider each year by snow plowing, dirt grading, trees dying, etc. Often, this widen goes unchallenged - and if it exists for a certain period of time - usually seven years - it automatically becomes town right-of-way by "easement by prescription." In regard to legal abandonment - that is a different issue -and legally - there are several types of road abandonment. Often there are three or four different levels and legal categories - and each one works differently. You can search countless legal document for definitions - but here's one for "easement by prescription . . .

An easement by prescription arises through an individual's use of land as opposed to the possession thereof. An easement of this nature will be recognized in these instances: (1) the easement is adverse or contrary to the interests, and absent the permission, of the landowner; (2) it is open and notorious; (3) it is continuous and uninterrupted; and (4) it exists for the period of time prescribed by state statute. If for a period of time beyond the prescribed statutory period A creates and openly uses a right of way across B's land without B's permission then an easement by prescription is created.

Do an Internet search of "public highway law" and/or "highway by prescription" and you could read forever.

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jddriver

10-28-2006 04:30:49




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 Re: Errent cars, fences, etc revisited in reply to NC Wayne, 10-27-2006 20:36:31  
You dont have to win $$ to wjust the legal fees alone will break most families and wind up selling assetts off just to pay the fees.In the end the property owner still looses



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Dachshund

10-27-2006 21:16:21




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 Re: Errent cars, fences, etc revisited in reply to NC Wayne, 10-27-2006 20:36:31  
You aren't safe with guardrail, either. When I worked for the Kansas DOT, there was an accident where a group of teenage girls were traveling down I-70 to a concrt in Topeka. They were east of the Manhattan junction when the driver turned in her seat to get something from one of the girls in back. When she did, she also turned the steering wheel. The car left the roadway, hit a guard rail, was "launched" into the air and went down a steep embankment. The driver was killed and the rest of the girls were hurt. The State was sued for placing the guard rail there. This was just one of MANY lawsuits involving guardrails. It does not matter which style - turn down, turn back, blunt end, crush end, High impact, etc, etc. Someone will find a reason to sue. This particular court case was pretty high profile. The Secretary of Transportaion for Kansas went on the national news one evening. He finally got fed up with the media bashing the KDOT. He made it plain and simple. He said "In all the legal battles and wrangling, and all the discussions, NOT ONCE has anyone asked the obvious question - WHAT WAS SHE DOING DRIVING IN THE DITCH"?
(The State won the suit)

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HENRY E NC

10-27-2006 20:41:11




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 Re: Errent cars, fences, etc revisited in reply to NC Wayne, 10-27-2006 20:36:31  
Aside from all that are you going to Horseshoe tomorrow? Supposd to be the best in the state.



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