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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

Starting battery question

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frankiee

10-21-2006 07:04:53




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Can a person (such as myself) put a marine deep cycle battery in a car as long as the marine battery had enough cranking amps?
The reason I would do this is because we usually have one battery that goes around and does a bunch of things whenever we need it. That battery has a rough life and I think a marine deep cycle would stand up better




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jdemaris

10-21-2006 11:15:12




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 Yes - it is the best buy, by far in reply to frankiee, 10-21-2006 07:04:53  
I guess I'm going to disgree with a few other comments that were posted. First, in my opinion, the glass-mat (AGM) batteries are often a waste of money. They have a high rate of failure and cost much more than their conventional lead-acid counterparts. They are very intolerant to overcharging. I have repaired several solar-electric systems where the overpriced AGMs failed within two years. And, in some cases, the warrantees are not honored - since the "small print" voids the warantee if overcharging is suspected. The lead-acid replacements usually last over seven years - for the cheaper batteries like Trojan T-105s and Deka GC-2s, and sometimes over ten years with the Canadian Rolls/Surette batteries. Paying twice the price for half the battery makes little sense to me. Yes - they have their place. Since there is no "free" liquid acid in them, they can often be shipped whereas other batteries cannot. They are spill-proof. Also, they work well indoors since they produce very little hydrogen gas, and most are maintenance-free. If you're looking for a good, cheap, all-around battery - for moderate deep-cycle use and cranking . . . I hate to say it - but you can't beat the Walmart deep-cycle batteries. Of course, that could change at any time - but I've been using them for five years now. I have a bank of twelve that I keep installed for a solar-powered cabin during the spring and summer. Then, I take them home and use them for cranking batteries in several diesel tractors and trucks. They work fine. Johnson Controls makes them for Walmart - often $50 each - Everstart Deep Cycle Marine 27DC-6, 12 volts, 115 amphours, 750 cold cranking amps, and 750 marine cranking amps. Keep in mind that the Walmart batteries - by defintion - are not true deep-cycle batteries - but they are close enough. Most true deep-cycle batteries are 6 volt and have heavier plates - which makes using them inconvenient for 12 volt tractors unless you have the room for two. I figured up a cost-per-year cost of several types of deep-cycle batteries when used in solar-storage systems. These figures use real case-histories of people that have used them. If you wanted to have around 10 kilowatt-hours of storage - all the time -then you figure the cost of the batteries and how long they last - and calculate the cost per year. That's about it.

Deka lead-acid deep-cycle - eight 215 AH batteries cost $69 per year = 10.3 KWh. Concord AGM - eight 220 Ah batteries cost $242 per year for 10.5 for 10.5 KWh of storage. Trojan lead-acid - five 370 AH batteries cost $171 per year for 11.1 KWh of storage. Rolls/Surette lead-acid - three 546 AH batteries cost $78 per year for 9.8 KWh of storage.

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Jon Hagen

10-21-2006 12:30:11




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 Re: Yes - it is the best buy, by far in reply to jdemaris, 10-21-2006 11:15:12  
My opinion is,I totally disagree with jdemaris opinion of the spiral cell AGM battery in a engine starting application,which is what this thread is about.
An AGM battery that has been boiled to death in a poorly or non regulated solar system is not the fault of the battery,so I can understand the refusal of warrenty.
In a starting application with a properly regulated charging system,they will about last for the life of the machine. My own experience with the Optima spiral AGM battery in a pickup that has seen 15 years of farm use with not only the thousands of normal starts in temps from 100 above to 40 below,but being used to boost start very large diesel engines that pull excessive amps from the battery. Add to that the fact that it has seen an accessory left on and totally discharged the battery a half dozen times or more through the years with nothing more than a jump start and let the alternator hammer a 60 amp charge back into the poor dead thing.

Inspite of this kind of abuse,the battery shows no loss of starting capacity and never a corroded cable or battery box. Both the Optima ans the Exide Orbital are a sealed battery so they produce no corrosive fumes or lose any water unless you overcharge them. If your getting them hot enough to open the burp valves,you have a serious overcharge problem,either in the machines charging system or some dummy who puts a 60 amp fast charger on the poor thing and walks away for two hours. Of the dozen or so spiral cell AGM batteries I have,not one has failed.

You will also find that because of the materials and design of the spiral cell battery,it will out cold crank a flooded cell battery of several hundred CCA higher spec.

Yes,they cost twice as much as a cheap flooded cell battery,but they will outlast it 4-10 times and will not corrode the cables and battery box of your fully restored collector car/pickup/tractor.
They also have a very slow self discharge rate ,and will be ready to start the machine after many months of non use,plus the faster recovery rate compared to a flooded cell battery.
They are the install it and forget it battery everyone dreams about.

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jdemaris

10-21-2006 16:18:46




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 Re: Yes - it is the best buy, by far in reply to Jon Hagen, 10-21-2006 12:30:11  
I think you're inserting a little hyperbole here. I said nothing about someone's batterie's being "boiled to death" as you put it. The last battery storage system that failed - that I have some knowledge of - is my neighbor's 5500 watt solar-electric system. His first batteries were Concored Sunextender AGMs. They failed before two years and there was nothing wrong with charging system. He replaced them with Rolls lead-acid and it's been fine ever since - with no changes in regard to charging or use. I have heard similar reports from several solar-electric intallers. Generally speaking, AGM batteries do not handle the deep and frequent draw-down that is common with such systems. The dealer simply stated that the batteries were probably not kept charged properly. The Concorde AGMs only have a one year replacement warranty on their Sunextender. To Optima's credit - their warranties range from 18 months to 36 months depending which version (I think there are three quality levels). With the Rolls/Surette lead-acid batteries - pretty much the same full-replacement warranty - and also - three levels of quality. I don't know of anyone that has used Optima's of any sort for large battery banks - so I can't comment either way.

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Jon Hagen

10-21-2006 17:28:09




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 Re: Yes - it is the best buy, by far in reply to jdemaris, 10-21-2006 16:18:46  
I took your comment that AGM batteries being very sensative to overcharge and failing where a flooded battery did not means that you suspected that they failed because they were overcharged. I can agree that a conventional design AGM battery with the multi square plate/seperator design not handling repeated deep dischargs may be true. That type of battery sees a lot of swell/shrink flexing and destructive movement of the plates during a deep discharge/charge cycle which can shorten their life. What I am refering to is the spiral cell AGM design used by Optima(Johnson controls) and Exide in their spiral cell AGM batteries. Each cell has one large positive plate/seperator and negative plate rolled up like a roll of newspaper. This tightly wound design does not suffer from the plate material shedding,seperator breakage or cell connector failure of a conventional design. Even the non deep cycle spiral cell batteries will stand a dozen or more full deep discharge/charge cycles without obvious damage,while a conventional flooded cranking battery usually sees enough damage after one deep cycle(stone cold dead) from sulfation and plate shedding to reduce it's capacity and usually total failure from a shorted cell or broken cell connectors after 2-3 very deep discharges. My comment is that I feel your experience with what I suspect was conventional design AGM batteries in a solar charged storage unit,unfairly casts a bad image of the Spiral cell AGM in a engine starting situation. I have found them to be far superior to any flooded cell battery in a engine starting situation with very long life and no need for maintenence to control corrosion of cables,battery boxes etc.

Both Optima and Exide also make marine hybrid cranking/deep cycle and true deep cycle versions of the Spiral cell AGM batteries to compliment the cranking batteries.

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jdemaris

10-22-2006 11:47:33




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 Re: Yes - it is the best buy, by far in reply to Jon Hagen, 10-21-2006 17:28:09  
The high failure rate of AGM batteries in deep-cycle battery banks has been attributed to #1 - their inability to sustain deep discharges on a daily basis, and #2 - thier inability to handle the equalization mode used my most charging systems for large battery banks. Equalization is necessary when you have many batteries strapped together in series/parallel connections. Many newer inverter/chargers now have a special mode just for AGMs along with a battery-temp. sensor. Even so, there are still problems. I can't comment much on the Optimas - mainly because - as of yet - they are not common for deep-cycle battery banks - at least not on a consumer level. I read about them years ago - when NASA was using them on the moon. Their purpose - at the time - was a lightweight battery that was spill-proof. A Swedish company bought the production-rights - and they were used overseas since the 90s. I've been told that such batteries - when bought for cars - were considered long-term investments. Johnson Controls bought the Optima from the Swedes around 5-6 years ago. From what I've read - they outperform most conventional flooded-acid batterys for cranking - but underperform with amphour ratings. A person - such as I - only has certain things to go by. What I see, what I hear, and what I read. I've seen many AGMs fail. I've heard the Optimas are great for certain applications. I've also heard a lot of wrong information given by sale's reps. Many AGMs have been sold for applications where they do not belong. The guy that started this post - seemed to asking a fairly simple question. I had assumed he already had a battery and was wondering if it was suitable for cranking purposes - since I was wondering the same thing a while back. If - he does not have one - and wants to buy -well? I guess it depends how much he wants to spend. In regard to your comment, though - i.e. " they cost twice as much as a cheap flooded cell battery, but they will outlast it 4-10 times." I doubt it. Maybe in some types of applications. But . . . I know of several people with flooded-lead-acid battery banks that are over 12 years old - with Rolls/Surette batteries. I know of banks with the cheaper Trojans that are 7-8 years old, and I've got some el-cheapo Walmart (Johnson Controls) marine-deep-cycle that have lasted 5 years. Going by your claim - if my Walmart battery lasts 5 years and cost $50 and provides 115 amphours - that's $10 per year cost for 110 amphours. Take a roughly equivalent Optima - at $200 -it would need to last at least twenty years to be of equal value - by one way of figuring. But - if using only for deep-cycle use - the Optima costs even more. The Walmart $50 battery is rated at 110 amphours. The $200 Optima D34/78 deep-cycle is rated at 55 amphours - going by the ratings they publish. That seems to be half of the Walmart battery - unless I'm misreading something. If correct - the 11O amphours from Walmart cost $10 a year - and the Optima 110 amphours (two batteries needed) cost $20 per year IF they lasts at least 20 years, or cost $10 per year if they lasts forty years. All I can say to that is - it's likely I'll be dead in 20 years - so there's no sense in running a test here at home.

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Kent Morris

10-21-2006 08:03:59




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 Re: Starting battery question in reply to frankiee, 10-21-2006 07:04:53  
I believe the most foregiving battery would be the "Optima". Vibration is not an issue. They have greater output at lower temps. You could shoot a hole through it and no electrolite would leak out. It would continue function until it eventually dries out. You can use it sideways or upside down. No outgassing to corrode terminals.
GOOGLE "Optima Batteries".



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Jon Hagen

10-21-2006 10:48:57




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 Re: Starting battery question in reply to Kent Morris, 10-21-2006 08:03:59  
The spiral cell AGM batteries like the Optima are great,I have one in a farm pickup that has been used and abused for 15 years and still going strong as new. About 3/4 of my farm equipment now has spiral cell AGM batteries as I replace the conventional flooded batteries as they fail. Exide also sells one(spiral cell AGM) called the Orbital power, force reactor,also sold by JD as the JD spiral power battery. They seem equally as good as the Optima for less money,although the oldest one I have is only about 6 years old. Sure is nice to have somthing that does not corrode the terminals or battery box and hold down. About the only way to kill them is to seriously overcharge them with an unregulated hot charger where you boil away the little electrolyte contained in the glass mat plate dividers.

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buickanddeere

10-21-2006 07:49:05




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 Re: Starting battery question in reply to frankiee, 10-21-2006 07:04:53  
It would be less rough on the battery(s) to have enough of them and not be moving them around. An AGM battery is among the most abuse resistant batteries to vibration. A marine battery is fine except the CCA are low comparied to their physical size. Too high temps, over charging, under charging,deep cycling & vibration are battery killers. Chewed up posts and loose posts from wrench stress will ruin a new battery in a few minutes. If turning a battery bolt, use two wrenches. The post can not take the strain. Don't be pounding the battery clamp on or prying it off with a screw driver either. Those crimes are punishable via a pounding as well.

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old

10-21-2006 07:48:36




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 Re: Starting battery question in reply to frankiee, 10-21-2006 07:04:53  
The answer is yes, no and sort of. Yes it will work for awhile. No it will not last as long as it should because they where made to be drained to almost nothing then charged back up. And if you put the 2 togeather you get the sort of. The problem comes in becuase they don't like to be used where they never get discharged like would happen in a car or truck but I have seen them used that way but they didn't last as long being used that way

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buickanddeere

10-21-2006 13:48:15




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 Re: Starting battery question in reply to old, 10-21-2006 07:48:36  
Any lead acid cell that is deep cycled will suffer shortened life. Some of the old ni-cads were the ones that needed deep cycling to prevent memory.



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