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taxes on land sale

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centmo

09-28-2006 14:19:25




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My parents are approaching 90 years old and called to say they were thinking of selling their farm. The farm is located in Misouri and is a little over 250 acres. They have several men in the area interested in purchasing the land. They have had it appraised and would sell it at that value. I know they will have to hire a lawyer to handle the sale but can anyone give me an idea what the tax liability would be on a sale in the amount of $450,000. Would there be other ways to sell the land and not get hurt from a lot of taxes? Thank you!!!

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Jrry

09-29-2006 14:27:39




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 Re: taxes on land sale in reply to centmo, 09-28-2006 14:19:25  
Lots of good answers below but Thack is right on point as long as this was their home and they have not sold a house and excluded the gain in the last two years. The gain (not the sale price) on the house and land can be excluded up to $250,000 each or $500,000 jointly.



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JDB

09-29-2006 10:29:08




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 Re: taxes on land sale in reply to centmo, 09-28-2006 14:19:25  
Ask a lawyer about doing a tax free exchange



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farmallman

09-29-2006 05:27:22




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 Re: taxes on land sale in reply to centmo, 09-28-2006 14:19:25  
OK, not to be nosey or anything, but just wanna get this straight. Your selling 250 acres for 450,000 dollars? Down here where I am, that would (just) get a 100 ac. farm, w/ 90 ac workable. I should come farm out there!



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paul

09-28-2006 21:39:55




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 Re: taxes on land sale in reply to centmo, 09-28-2006 14:19:25  
Lots of elderly farmers rent out their land, and let the land pass on to their heirs upon death. At the current time (and these laws change every few years, nothing in stone) the heirs get to 'recieve' the land at current basis. Then the heirs can sell it and owe very little capital gains.

This assumes the county will not take the land as payment for old home, etc. (They have other assets that cover old age expenses.) Also assumes the hiers are worthy of getting the assets, etc. ;)

Many sticky issues with this, but it is _one_ way for _some_ to deal with capitol gains taxes.

Otherwise, govt will take the price your folks get for the land, subtract what they paid for the land, and take about 15% of that for the capitol gains tax.

As mentioned, there are homesteading deals, and other exceptions, but they generally are minor on farm land.

Just general ideas - see a good CPA to help yourself out!

--->Paul

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Duner Wi

09-28-2006 19:49:54




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 Re: taxes on land sale in reply to centmo, 09-28-2006 14:19:25  
Do a search on "2008 capitol gains tax" read up on it and then go talk to a real good tax person. The libilities might not be all that bad.



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Drill

09-28-2006 20:08:26




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 Re: taxes on land sale in reply to Duner Wi, 09-28-2006 19:49:54  
One thing you can be sure of is that the lawyers and accountants will get the biggest share right off the top.



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Davis In SC

09-28-2006 20:19:46




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 Re: taxes on land sale in reply to Drill, 09-28-2006 20:08:26  
Not always true... When I was settling my Dad's estate, my attorney referred me to a great CPA. He took care of everything, answered tons of questions, all for a surprisingly low fee. He even showed me how he had saved me a bunch of estate tax, more than 3 times the amount he charged me for handling the estate.. He explained everything, it was all legal, & assured me he would stand behind it, if there was an audit.. The best money you can spend is for a competant attorney, and/or CPA....

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dhermesc

09-29-2006 05:56:04




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 Re: taxes on land sale in reply to Davis In SC, 09-28-2006 20:19:46  
CPAs (honest ones) operate on a stated fee, a lawyer will try and operate on a percentage. When it comes to estate planning a lawyer will usually make a mess of things before all is said in done, especially ones that don't specialize in tax law.

In this case the couple needs to know their basis in the land, or what they paid for it and the cost of improvements (fence, terraces, buildings) they've made over the years. Items that have been depreciated like a $40,000 machine shed that has been depreciate to -0-, will be taxed at the regular tax rate to the extent of their value at the time of the sale. As long as they have (some) records the tax return shouldn't cost all that much to prepare.

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MarkB_MI

09-28-2006 19:18:09




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 Re: taxes on land sale in reply to centmo, 09-28-2006 14:19:25  
What the taxes will be depend on what their cost basis is. This may be very difficult to determine, since farms are frequently gifted from one generation to the next (rather than inherited). When you receive property as a gift, you also get the donor's tax basis. To determine the cost basis, you must follow the title history back until you get to either a purchase or inheritance.

In the case of a purchase, the cost basis is the actual purchase price. Of course the cost basis is adjusted for improvements to the property, less depreciation that's been deducted from taxes.

In the case of inheritance, the property gets a new cost basis equal the value of the property when it was inherited. Of course, that value may be difficult to determine today if the property wasn't appraised then.

Capital gains are taxed at 28 percent, so if the cost basis on your parents' property is $50,000, the gains would be $400,000 resulting in a tax liability of $112,000.

The best way to avoid taxes on the property is for you parents to will it to their heirs. After their death, the heirs will get a new cost basis and can sell the property (if they wish) without paying any capital gains tax.

You need to find out why your parents want to sell this property. And they need the advice of a lawer specializing in estate planning before they put the property on the market.

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dhermesc

09-29-2006 06:01:13




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 Re: taxes on land sale in reply to MarkB_MI, 09-28-2006 19:18:09  
Long term capital gains are taxed at 15% or less. Short term capital gains are determined by the individual's tax bracket.



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MarkB_MI

09-29-2006 06:30:23




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 Re: taxes on land sale in reply to dhermesc, 09-29-2006 06:01:13  
My mistake. You are correct, the maximum rate on real property is 15 percent, not 28. Still a sizable chunk of money if the gain is several hundred thousand dollars.



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Dave H (MI)

09-28-2006 19:08:58




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 Re: taxes on land sale in reply to centmo, 09-28-2006 14:19:25  
I'm a CPA and I do a LOT of tax work. Some of what you were told below is true, some partially true, and some utter nonsense. Yes there is a $500K exclusion of gain for married. No, it is not a one time thing. The sticky wicket here is going to be that part of the property is going to be residential and qualify and (probably) other parts will not. If the folks have been running the farm as a business and filing some type of tax form for it which includes depreciation on buildings, etc then it won't be cut and dried.
The best advice you got here was to find someone good AND local AND with letters CPA after their name. God speed. Dave

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john *.?-!.* cub owner

09-28-2006 19:03:39




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 Re: taxes on land sale in reply to centmo, 09-28-2006 14:19:25  
We are in the process of going through the same thing in MO. with the farm my folks have owned for 44 years. Dad died 14 years aog nad it is now in Mom's name, which complictaes things. I talked to an accoutntant and was told that the home and yard would not be taxed, but capital gains taxes would have to be paid on the difference between purchase price and selling price. My advice is spned 40 or 50 dollars and get soem advice from an accountatn that deals with taxes.

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dhermesc

09-29-2006 06:05:29




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 Re: taxes on land sale in reply to john *.?-!.* cub owner, 09-28-2006 19:03:39  
Hope the accountant remembered to step up the basis in the property for when your dad died.



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Dave Sherburne NY

09-28-2006 18:03:59




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 Re: taxes on land sale in reply to centmo, 09-28-2006 14:19:25  
As stated below there is an exemption for
people over 55 who sell their homes. There must be
a very expensive home on this farm, and the rest of
the farm probrobly isn't worth much. I think the seller gets to appraise the house and the rest of the farm. You can get away with a very high
appraisel for the house portion as long as it isn't to unrealistic which will be exempted from
taxes, but on the rest of the farm there will be capital gains which are offset by whatever
has been invested in capital improvements. That said, GO SEE SOMEBODY WHO KNOWS WHAT
HE IS TALKING ABOUT. then report back to us with the right answer.

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Thack

09-28-2006 17:56:28




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 Re: taxes on land sale in reply to centmo, 09-28-2006 14:19:25  
If they file jointly they can lock in a profit of $500,000 and owe nothing.

IRS regulations also allow you to use your valuable gain exclusion to shelter profit from selling vacant land next to your principal residence. You can even sell the parcel with your home and the surrounding vacant land in completely separate transactions.

"However, the land must be sold within two years before or after you sell the parcel containing your house".

Also, the land must be adjacent to that parcel and be used as part of your principal residence.

For example you can sell a one-acre parcel with your home in one transaction and a 29-acre adjacent parcel of vacant land in a separate transaction — and use your gain exclusion to shelter the combined profits from the two sales.

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Hobo,NC

09-28-2006 16:17:37




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 Re: taxes on land sale in reply to centmo, 09-28-2006 14:19:25  
Had a friend who just sold his property, then retired. He told me that after age 55 you can ONE time sell you house and property tax free, I would check on that.



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MartyInVa

09-28-2006 15:55:56




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 Re: taxes on land sale in reply to centmo, 09-28-2006 14:19:25  
Don't know if your parents plan on selling the house and land together but each individual has a $250000 exp. when selling their home. They must have lived in it for 2yrs out of the past 5. This would give them a $500000 exp. Like the others have said check with local att. or cpa.

Check out this link if in doubt.

http://www.inman.com/bruss/reports/3344th1x4.htm



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John T

09-28-2006 15:28:44




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 Re: taxes on land sale in reply to centmo, 09-28-2006 14:19:25  
centmo, I passed the Indiana State Bar Exam the first go around which included some Tax Law, BUT IT AINT MY THING and I dont practice in the area. That being said, ways which can help spread the burden are to receive the payment over some years, but at their age I dont see that as a great option, although the standard installment land sale contract would bind the successors heirs and assigns. Other things that may help reduce capital gains tax are if they reinvest within a certain time but again, at their age that may not be feasible either. I do some small estate planning work and advise my clients as they get older theyre better off not having many assetts cuz its just something bill collectors can atatch in the event they run up some huge debts. Then theres the look back period concerning spend down as far as their giving funds to children n grandchildren etc, but they are allowed to give so much per year without harsh tax consequences. Again, Tax Law aint my thing but I dont see too many great things they can do now as far as avoiding capital gains taxes but they should plan ahead now to divest themselves of assetts to children etc in such a manner (so much per child per year etc) to reduce tax liability. They need to do things like funeral trust funds and other trust instruments concernign the time of their passing. What they need to do is minimize their "probate estate" with instruments such as Pay on Death (POD) or Joint Tenancy with rights of survivorship accounts on savings, checking, CD and Stocks etc and similar concerning ownership of real estate such that the named Co Tenant acquires title by operation of law upon their death taking it outside of the probate assett pool.

Basically, do as suggested and get a local (who knows your states laws) CPA and/or Tax Lawyer cuz what they charge you will gain many times over as far as complex tax avoidance is concerned.

John T, Retired Engineer now a Country Lawyer, but NOT a Tax Lawyer for sureeeee ee

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Dandy Don

09-29-2006 09:44:33




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 Re: taxes on land sale in reply to John T, 09-28-2006 15:28:44  
Buuuuutttt John T can you cook too? (:>

Don



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noncompos

09-28-2006 17:00:22




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 Re: taxes on land sale in reply to John T, 09-28-2006 15:28:44  
John T: If you'd like to read some really good "country lawyer" stories, dig up some of the Tutt stories by Arthur Train. I've lost track but I think there were two or three books, plus some more serious stuff Train did (interesting, but not nearly as much fun as Tutt and Mr. Tutt). If memory serves he was both a defense lawyer and a prosecutor in New York in the 20s (?).



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Blue3992

09-28-2006 14:36:59




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 Re: taxes on land sale in reply to centmo, 09-28-2006 14:19:25  
I don't know nothing about nothing, but.....

I second the advice of going to see a pro--a Certified Public Accountant (CPA), or someone else who knows how to keep your money safe.

Based on what I've heard, if you sell something like a large chunk of land, you are subject to Capital Gains tax. For the value you are talking about, I think those run as much as 50%. (ouch!)

Now, I think the way most people get around the Capital Gains tax is to take the money and reinvest it in more property. I think there are other games you can play with it to avoid the Capital Gains, like giving one-time gifts to relatives and what not.

Like I said though, consult a pro. The information in this thread is free, and worth what you pay for it.

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Bus Driver

09-28-2006 14:25:45




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 Re: taxes on land sale in reply to centmo, 09-28-2006 14:19:25  
I have an opinion, as will lots of others who read this post. I suggest talking with a CPA who specializes in taxes of the USA and your State.



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