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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

Electrical power to pole shed

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Nick R (Wi)

09-06-2006 05:56:44




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Just finished a machine shed and want to put power into the shed the proper way. What I now have is 100 amp 240 volt service disconnect box on a building 110 feet away. This box has a ground wire running from the common buss in the disconnect box to a ground rod. I want to install another curcuit breaker box in the shed with two 20 amp 120 volts circuits, one on each side of the common. Questions? Do I run another ground wire and rod at the shed or does it have to run back to the service disconnect box? What wire size should I use from box to box and does the steel roof and siding need any kind of grounding for protection. Thanks in advance for the input. Nick.

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Gary Schafer

09-06-2006 17:35:35




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 Re: Electrical power to pole shed in reply to Nick R (Wi), 09-06-2006 05:56:44  

If I remember right, if you only run a single circuit to an out building (a hot, neutral and ground wire for a light and an outlet as an example) then you do not have to have a ground rod at the out building. More than a single circuit requires ground rods at the out building.

A sub panel in the same building as the main distribution panel requires 4 wires run to it and the neutral / ground bond left open in the sub panel.

A sub panel in a detached building only requires 3 wires, the two hot wires and a neutral. The neutral is bonded in the sub panel along with the required ground rods at the outbuilding. In this situation there are not supposed to be any other metallic connections between the main and detached building, no phone lines, water lines etc.

Otherwise 4 wires are needed between main and outbuildings and neutral and ground bonds left open at the sub panel but a local ground rod is still required at the outbuilding and it is tied to the ground bus of the sub panel along with the ground wire from the main panel.

You can always tie as many grounds as you like to the ground system in any case anywhere.
It is only sometimes that the ground and neutral are not to be bonded together. I.e. with 4 wire sub panel connections.

Regards
Gary

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GeorgeH

09-06-2006 07:14:39




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 Re: Electrical power to pole shed in reply to Nick R (Wi), 09-06-2006 05:56:44  
You might want to check building codes also. I recently put up a metal building and am not allowed to install electricity in the structure. (Ohio).



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paul

09-06-2006 19:01:26




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 Re: Electrical power to pole shed in reply to GeorgeH, 09-06-2006 07:14:39  
How do you mean that? Must be a licenced person to do the job, or????

They can wire anything - just depends how much you need to spend on the armor & ground & so on.

--->Paul



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John T

09-06-2006 06:35:17




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 Re: Electrical power to pole shed in reply to Nick R (Wi), 09-06-2006 05:56:44  
Nick, based upon what you say, it appears at the existing 100 amp service disconnect you described the Neutral is bonded to a grounding electrode (the driven earth ground rod) and the Equipment Ground Buss. If such be the case, whenever you provide feeders to a "Sub Panel" out of such a panel, you DO NOT bond the Neutral Buss and the Equipment Ground Buss again at the "Sub Panel". The Sub Panel would have seperate and isolated Neutral and Ground Busses that ARE NOT bonded together like at the Main Service Entrance Panel.

That means you would run 4 wires to the Sub Panel (if you want both legs of 120 as you stated) being 2 Hots (L1 & L2 Red & Black),,,,, a Neutral (White Grounded Conductor) and an Equipment Ground (Green or Bare Grounding Conductor).

If you plan to direct bury it simply use type UF (Underground Feeder) wire. Since the run is 110 feet and you wanna use 20 amp branch circuits, I would use 10 Gauge Wire minimum to lessen voltage drop, that would be 10/3 with ground (4 conductor) Type UF Cable.

Sooooo ooooo to answer your question NOOOOO O you DO NOT use another ground rod at the shed and there at that Sub Panel you have seperate and isolated Neutral and Equipment Ground Busses.

Note, there are NEC exceptions as far as sub services to agricultural and outbuildings and additional grounding electrodes such as driven rods etc whereby you might get by with running 3 instead of 4 conductors, it has to do with maintaining the Equipment Ground Buss at the same potential as mother earth so when Bossy the cows nose touches the bonded to Equipment Ground Buss metal frame of say an automatic waterer, its potential is the same as mother earth so she dont get a shock.

DISCLAIMER Im long retired as an Electrical Engineer and am NOT up on the NEC as I once was and not familiar with the exceptions regarding service to sub panels for agricultural or remote outbuildings whereby you might get by running 3 versus 4 conductors to the remote location and re establshing another grounding electrode such as another driven ground rod etc as you asked,,,,, ,, sooooo ooooo you best check with your local building authority or agency as many of these practices are governed not only by the NEC but by the local governments and electrical inspectors etc.

PS At your existing Main Service Panel you would serve the Sub Panel with a 2 pole 240 volt (tied) 20 amp circuit breaker, that way if one leg would have a fault, the breakers tripping would cut power to BOTH legs L1 & L2.

Best wishes n God Bless

John T (Long retired and NEC rusty EE)

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buickanddeere

09-06-2006 16:06:19




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 Re: Electrical power to pole shed in reply to John T, 09-06-2006 06:35:17  
Around here each out building panel also needs two 10ft ground rods driven at least 10 ft from each other. The main service panel has the neutral/ground bonded.The "pony panels" all have the neutral/ground open. The two ground rods are connected to each other and to only the ground lug in the pony panel. If you don't go at least 60Amp in the out building you will always wish you had. My code book isn't handy but I think TWU #2 or #3 aluminium or copper buried 3+ ft deep will work with the 60 amp out panel . Use a 4" plastic drain tile as a raceway. If there is ever a fault the whole run can be easily pulled out. Out side receptacles must be GFI and it's a good idea if all inside 120V 15-20 amp U-Grounds are as well. If you find the meter base rusted out a Ronk transfer switch/meter base works well and is reasonable $. If supplying the out building from a pair of breakers in the exisiting panel. A panel change to a Reliance Control panel puts the transfer switch for a generator right in the main breaker panel. Or you can install a feed through transfer switch mounted between the existing meter base and existing breaker panel. This weather proof feed-through panel also has four full sized breakers. The new shed panel could be fed off it. In for a penny, in for a pound. This is the time to upgrade when everything is already torn up.

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paul

09-06-2006 10:55:34




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 Re: Electrical power to pole shed in reply to John T, 09-06-2006 06:35:17  
I agree with you.

I was thinking everything needed the 4 wire setup you describe.

When the pros rewired my farm, it was 3 wires to every building, with a ground rod driven at every box/building.

I was surprised. Guess I must be in the ag variation thing. Inspector was fine with everything, actuially got bored & don't think he inspected 1/2 of the buildings.

A person might want to find out which way the local inspecor prefers it for the particular type of building you are putting up.

--->Paul

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John T

09-06-2006 11:15:43




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 Re: Electrical power to pole shed in reply to paul, 09-06-2006 10:55:34  
Youre EXACTLY RIGHT its best to check with the local inspection authority cuz many times they do it different in different locations. Some may prefer 3 wires and re bond the Neutral at each sub building while others may require the 4 wire circuit cuz there are certain NEC exceptions but Im too lazy to look em all up lol

Take care yall

John T



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