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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

Starter Drive Problems

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Miss Kelly

08-24-2006 15:58:14




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What could cause starter drives on an old 9N to
"spin out" over and over? I have put three new starter drives (and one new starter) on the tractor since purchasing it in April, and the latest one has "spun out" again! They work fine for a while, and then just "spin out" for no reason that I can determine. Any suggestions?




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noncompos

08-24-2006 19:24:15




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 Re: Starter Drive Problems in reply to Miss Kelly, 08-24-2006 15:58:14  
You weren't very clear on how many starts (roughly) a "while" included (a week? a month? how often started?) or what "spin out" means (just spins, doesn't engage ring gear on engine? or throws in but immediately throws back out, without turning engine, and spins until you release starter?) If the latter,shine a good light on the teeth on the flywheel (the "ring gear") per Bob's (3) suggestion, and with the plugs out see if someone can slowly rotate the engine while someone else looks. Four cyl engines tend to stop in four places, and every time the starter throws in it wears a touch where it engages. Over years that can wear teeth on flywheel to where starter gear doesn't get good grip, can wear gear on starter to where won't stay in long enough to start. My apologies if I'm belaboring the obvious. Good luck.

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Miss Kelly

08-25-2006 10:21:32




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 Re: Starter Drive Problems in reply to noncompos, 08-24-2006 19:24:15  
Thanks for the thorough reply. I will look at the flywheel, but would also like to address the particulars you mentioned: When I push the starter button, the starter spins, but does not engage; as to the number of starts, I get about a dozen starts per starter drive; and "spun out" refers to a condition wherein the starter drive gets permanently stuck, and does not snap (or throw) back as it is supposed to. (Based on what you said, it sounds as if the drive is getting stuck in the "throw out" position--?) Can the flywheel cause this, or is it probably as Bob says, poor quality imported drives? Thanks!

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noncompos

08-25-2006 22:08:48




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 Re: Starter Drive Problems in reply to Miss Kelly, 08-25-2006 10:21:32  
When you hit the starter button it just spins, doesn't engage the engine flywheel ring gear: that's usually a bad starter drive or a bent starter shaft that won't let the starter drive gear slip down the shaft, into the flywheel ring gear, to turn the engine...but it does sometimes slip down the starter shaft to engage the engine flywheel or it couldn't get stuck in the flywheeel ring gear, which could be a bad starter (not enough energy to turn engine when it does engage) a bad drive (binding or locking up when load of trying to turn engine hits it) or damaged teeth on the flywheel ring gear locking into the starter drive gear, preventing it from turning the engine. UNLESS when the starter just spins it makes a grinding noise (starter drive gear throwing into engine, but not enough teeth left on engine ring gear to turn engine, gears grinding until they lock.). Question: on the starter drives you've replaced, was the little gear on the end of the starter drive worn or damaged? After only a dozen or so starts, it should look just like new on a normal rig; if your ring gear teeth are bad, there should at least be scoring on the starter gear. My experience sez bad ring gear teeth, but the "just spins, doesn't engage" bothers me, unless it's screechy noisy. The suggestion about turning the engine was right; on old cars we'd jump out,IGNITION OFF,raise the hood, grab the fan belt with one hand, enough to pull it tight, and the fan (near the hub) with the other, turning the engine a little by pulling (carefully!) on the fan, turning the bad spot away from the starter.

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Miss Kelly

08-28-2006 19:46:23




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 Re: Starter Drive Problems in reply to noncompos, 08-25-2006 22:08:48  
I sure do appreciate everyone helping with this -I hope I can convey intelligently a few answers to the questions you pose here. As to noise, what I last heard wasn't a grinding noise, but just a soft "whirring" or "spinning" noise. (And I am just assuming that it was the starter making it, I should add). However, I also need to clarify this further by saying that my most recent starter drive trouble was the first time this soft "whirring" noise happened; the first two times I lost a starter drive, the tell-tale sound was more like that of a weak starter or battery in your car: just slow, weak cranking, not enough to start the engine. Now, as to your question about the gears on the replaced drives: well, that star-shaped gear that protrudes from the bendix towards the starter itself has shiny spots on it all way 'round on my third and latest "bad" starter drive (which came mounted on a brand new starter I recently purchased from YT)- but, it doesn't really look worn (probably because I didn't get but a few - half dozen? - starts out of it); however, the starter drive that "spun out" just prior to this latest one looks pretty chewed up in that same particular spot, especially for my never having got more than a dozen or so starts out of it (or the drive before it, for that matter). The first drive I lost - it came with the tractor, and went bad right after I got it home - I just threw it away, having been told it was bad, and can't say what condiiton the gear was in. Probably bad, judging by its successor. I hope that is what you were talking (asking) about, and that this makes some sense. Sounds like I will have to plan on splitting the tractor soon, huh? Thanks again for the input.

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MarkB_MI

08-25-2006 17:26:09




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 Re: Starter Drive Problems in reply to Miss Kelly, 08-25-2006 10:21:32  
The fact that when you remove the starter the drive is in the "out" position (actually "in", Ford starter drives spin in to engage, not out) tells me that the ring gear is almost certainly bad. If the drive was bad, it would be stuck in the disengaged position. The way it's supposed to work is that the flywheel spins the starter drive back into the disengaged position when the engine starts.

A tractor split is in your future. Figure on replacing the clutch while you're in there, since the parts are relatively cheap compared to the labor.

The good news is you now have plenty of perfectly good starter drives on hand.

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Miss Kelly

08-28-2006 19:58:02




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 Re: Starter Drive Problems in reply to MarkB_MI, 08-25-2006 17:26:09  
You gotta love an optimist! Thanks - I think you're right on all counts. So, it sounds like -assuming a ring gear problem - if I put my new starter with its new "stuck" drive back on the tractor after replacing the ring gear, it should work again, and I won't have to go out and buy yet another drive? The help I have received from this forum is invaluable - thanks to everyone!



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MarkB_MI

08-24-2006 19:18:08




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 Re: Starter Drive Problems in reply to Miss Kelly, 08-24-2006 15:58:14  
Likely you have a bad starter ring gear on the flywheel. The starter drives probably just barely engage when new, then slip after the least bit of wear.

The ring gear is a fairly cheap part (probably less than $20), but the tractor must be split in order to replace it.

A bad ring gear will only have a few bad teeth. If you can move the flywheel to a different spot you should be able to get the tractor to start.

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Bob

08-24-2006 16:04:46




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 Re: Starter Drive Problems in reply to Miss Kelly, 08-24-2006 15:58:14  
1.) You may be getting poor quality imported drives.

2.) Some replacement drives require that a new pin hole be drilled something like 1/2" inboard of the old hole in the starter shaft. (Confirm this dimension BEFORE drilling!)

3.) The flywheel ring gear may be badly damaged, or the starter shaft may be bent.



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