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O/T cement question. Made for the old timers

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old

07-22-2006 21:27:15




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Years ago when they would pour cement they would use a lot of large rock in the cement but now days you almost never see them doing that. I have even seen/heard of makeing forms and then filling them with large rocks with big gaps between them and then pouring in the cement. Now heres the question. Why don't they do that any more?? Is it because of all the labor to do so or was it because it wasn't strong?? I still see a lot of what is left of old school houses/foudations etc. that where built that way standing so it had to work so whats up with that?? Thanks
I know if it was done say when building a barn etc. it would save a lot of $$ just in the cement used and at $80 plus a yard why not use that way?

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Jimmy King

07-23-2006 19:46:06




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 Re: O/T cement question. Made for the old timers in reply to old, 07-22-2006 21:27:15  
Old, My Dad built our big barn in the early 1940's. the Walls up to the hay loft, which is a drive in, are made from limestone rock. Dads older brother had a farm with a small limestone quarry on it from the old Ash Grove Lime Co. He got the rock from there, and built a wall out of 1 x ? and 2 x 4's braced. stood the lime stone rock up about 4 inches from the wall tied them with baling wire and poured concrete behind them and it ran out between the rock and set them he later built a Grade A dairy barn the same way in about 1953, though we had remodled the inside from a 3 bypass to a double 4 hearingbone I was still milking in it when I quit dairying in 1996. The floors had field rock in them and I have chopped some of them out to change some things and it wasn't easy. We have also chopped out some of the rock walls and that wasn't easy either. Green county code will not let us use field rock in concrete anymore. The big quarrys have them sewed up, so we have to buy rock from them. It has nothing to do about strenth just $$$$$$$$$$.

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Matt Kane

07-23-2006 17:46:49




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 Re: O/T cement question. Made for the old timers in reply to old, 07-22-2006 21:27:15  
Half of our basement is Boulders with very little concrete, also Our support wall for our Bank Barn is very little concrete, and almost all rock. The barn was built in 1880. They say if you relieve the pressure off of the foundations, most of them would crumble to the ground.



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Coloken

07-23-2006 06:16:47




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 Re: O/T cement question. Made for the old timers in reply to old, 07-22-2006 21:27:15  
The house I was born and raised in was built that way. It was just to save cost. You throw the rocks in, then run a board down next to the form in an attemt to move them away from the edge to not leave a hole. Large Barn my dad helped build too. Hand mixed. Started at 7 to one. money got short and changed to 9 to 1. When they got to the hay mow (about 7 foot) they mixed at 11 to one. About 1917. Fallen down now, but chucks on the ground still hold together pretty good. Talk about work--two people and 30 by 40 barn walls, hand mixed. Needless to say no building codes then. Kennyp

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farmerblew

07-23-2006 05:49:17




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 Re: O/T cement question. Made for the old timers in reply to old, 07-22-2006 21:27:15  
When they put up my ploe barn they used rocks to secure the poles upright.5/8 blue stone and the poured the cement rigth in to the hole over it and what they said was it will settle in and make it stronger.The rock haveing lockedthe pole in place . My 2cents



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4010guy

07-23-2006 05:08:56




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 Re: O/T cement question. Made for the old timers in reply to old, 07-22-2006 21:27:15  
Hi old, Ya you have a point about them old foudations still holding up buildings that are mabe a 100 or more years old. I would say a labor facter would probalby be the reasen plus if them rocks are not laid good and tight plus a lot of them were split with them old roch hamers that still show up from time to time.the old house foudations were bad for not keeping out snakes-salamanders-and just plain water.as with everthing from that erea its probaley a lost art. I did here one time that some rocks could be split and some could not and the guys hauling them soon fuigerd witch was witch after hauling the rejecs back to the feilds. A lot of the cost of ready mix is labor and guys say if they mix there own they save a lot. just a thot.

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Dachshund

07-23-2006 04:55:47




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 Re: O/T cement question. Made for the old timers in reply to old, 07-22-2006 21:27:15  
When I worked for the Kansas DOT, we did a study on some older concrete. The samples came from I-35, US Highway 50, and OLD US 50. These roads were built in 1967, 1952, and 1918, respectivly, and all samples were taken within a couple miles of each other, where the roads run nearly side-by-side east of Emporia, KS. We found that the cores from 1918 consistently tested conciderably higher than the others! The samples from the newest road tested worst by FAR. In 1918 you had a truck load of rock that was dumped into the mix - what ever was on the truck went into the "mud". By the 1950's mixes were being designed that included more medium fines. By the 60's, most mixes (and EVERY state will differ) began using a lot of "fines" with the theory that they would "bond" the mix like glue. It's just another shining example of engineers out-thinking themselves and trying to earn a piece of paper that isn't worth very much!

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Everett Mi

07-23-2006 04:49:16




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 Re: O/T cement question. Made for the old timers in reply to old, 07-22-2006 21:27:15  
Know what saying about useing stone in cement. The basement walls in the farm house are large stone and concrete, about 20in thick. When cleaning up the chicken coup, the floor was field stone with about one inch of concrete. Held up for 70 yrs.



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Billy NY

07-23-2006 04:45:59




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 Re: O/T cement question. Made for the old timers in reply to old, 07-22-2006 21:27:15  
That is an interesting question. I remember the floors in our old barns, one them is still in-tact, and there were larger round stone in the mix it seems. It defintitely appears that in old buildings, things were done different, I wonder what the mix looked in in the Hoover Dam, in regards to aggregate size.

I just dug up around the base of my foundation here, and it the footings were not trowelled, so you can see the round stone in the mix, it was poured in 1977.

When in college, we studied strenghts and statistics of materials and we did a lot with concrete, creating our own mix design, testing same in cylinders and beams. Most of what we did in the design was out of ASTM C 104 - 106 or somewhere around there, from analyzing sieve sizes and specific gravity of the aggregates to acutally making mixes. I used to think it was fun, because most of these materials I 've hauled in a dump truck, but I never thought I'd be analyzing them.

From what I can understand and based on all the things that comprised formulating a mix design to meet a certain compressive strength, it seems ASTM ( American Society of Testing Materials ) that one thing was important, the uniformity of the aggregate, of all the composite sizes from a source. It's all combined like a recipe, so much of each sieve size aggregate, in measured by weight increments, besides the cementitious material ( portland ) and water as well as admixtures used today. I believe this is what gives it it's compressive strength, uniformly, whereas if you were to place large aggregate into the mix, it could concentrate in an area, or a variety of things, including voids, hard to really say, but could jeopardize the strength in areas of the pour, creating weak spots. That is just a theory though, on a large pour like a bridge pier or column, or maybe not so, but if your using 6" aggregate on an 8" foundation wall, maybe it's an issue.

Another thing that comes to mind, I see pea gravel and round aggregate still used in bag mixes, I don't see it in mixes made by the suppliers and delivered in trucks. I think that the majority of suppliers use a crushed stone aggregate, it has a rougher surface and I would think makes a better bond, vs. round aggregate. I'm sure when the footings were poured here, that the top had a layer of fines on it, and was gray, no stone showing, now after disturbing it, seems like that layer spalls a little easier, exposing the round aggregate inside. This would appear to also be even more prevalent if exposed or in areas where the concrete was around harsh elements, freezing, thawing, chemicals, salt like on roads. Concrete has capillaries and things can be absorbed into it, I would think the round stone may lose it's bond easier, but who is to day if that is correct, just an opinion here.

ACI , is another reference standard for concrete, ( American Concrete Institute ) I recall using some of those journals for research papers I did as part of my class work, did one on the abrasiveness of concrete as used in highway applications, got an A on it, was always imaginative, no one in the class had any far fetched topics like this one I did, went out on a limb I recall, but those journals were more suited to engineers, not written so much in laymans terms if I recall. It seems that they test sections of slabs and also insert or put test sections on highways and analyze same for wear. In the lab there is a giant arm with a tire and all the pieces are a trapezoid shape, creating a circle, the wheel goes around in circles to simulate years of wear. From what I recall about that, is the harder the aggregate, and the stronger the mix design, the higher the abrasion resistance.

It's a vast subject no doubt.

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Bus Driver

07-23-2006 04:43:11




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 Re: O/T cement question. Made for the old timers in reply to old, 07-22-2006 21:27:15  
The bigger rocks makes for weaker concrete. Limiting the size of aggregate also helps limit the length of cracks. There is lots of information about concrete on the WEB. Much of the information is written in the language of engineers.



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Glenn F.

07-23-2006 04:12:05




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 Re: O/T cement question. Made for the old timers in reply to old, 07-22-2006 21:27:15  
Years ago we were building a new silo house. We had some leftover concrete so we quickly formed up an apron by the overhead door. Us four boys hustled and found all the rocks we could. It was amazing how big of an apron we were able to come up with with so little concrete. We couldn't do it again though as that farm simply did not have any rocks. The ones we found were hauled in the yard at different times for some other purpose. Even though the apron was formed up quickly, and didn''t have a proper sand base, years later, it still didn't have a single crack.

Glenn F.

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Handyman

07-22-2006 22:50:38




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 Re: O/T cement question. Made for the old timers in reply to old, 07-22-2006 21:27:15  
years ago concrete had to be mixed by hand, putting large rocks in the forms reduced the amount of concrete one needed to mix in a trough or wheelbarrow. today concrete is mixed and delivered in large trucks and dumped directly into the forms with a lot less shovel work.



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Pooh Bear

07-22-2006 22:26:07




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 Re: O/T cement question. Made for the old timers in reply to old, 07-22-2006 21:27:15  
It's probably simple economics.
Think about what a yard of concrete costs.
Now think about how long it takes to mess with a
yard of rocks, collecting, placing, etc.
The man-hours would be better spent doing something else.
Rather than have a worker collect and place a yard
of rocks, just order another yard of concrete.

Pooh Bear



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Larry NE IL

07-22-2006 21:55:22




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 Re: O/T cement question. Made for the old timers in reply to old, 07-22-2006 21:27:15  
Hi Old,
I never saw what your talking about. When I first started working construction, we mixed some of the concrete by hand and always used about a # 6 washed gravel in the mix. I've seen barn and house foundations that were built with fieldstone but they are mortared together (or apart) like bricks. Occaisionally, when running a few shovels short in a foundation pour, I've seen guys throw in bricks, large rocks to make up the cement shortage. Larry NE IL

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ryan from WI

07-22-2006 21:52:19




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 Re: O/T cement question. Made for the old timers in reply to old, 07-22-2006 21:27:15  
My grandpa told me that one time. When he was a kid they go by the river and pick rocks. Doing it that way he said was cheaper. He said it was very hard work lifting those big rocks. Also it is very hard work to bust that old stuff when we did the barn floor over that time. Today it takes to much time.



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