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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

6v vs 8v battery

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rnanorth2

04-17-2006 15:39:00




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The local farm store is trying to get me to buy a 8v battery for my old Farmall H 6v system. Will this work? Besides 8v battery chargers not being readily available, what else might I run into? What about the headlights?




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JDknut

04-18-2006 03:37:50




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 Re: 6v vs 8v battery in reply to rnanorth2, 04-17-2006 15:39:00  
John T is right, with the proper cables, grounds, and a good battery you should do just fine on 6 volts. I had 6-volt Fords and Deeres that started just fine in xero weather, but the key is the right size cables, not the autop parts specials that are too skinny. ALso good grounds, clean terminals, good battery, and an engien in tune and you are good to go.



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John T

04-18-2006 06:24:48




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 Re: 6v vs 8v battery in reply to JDknut, 04-18-2006 03:37:50  
Right on JD, Of course, the factory design and cable and battery sizes worked fine when the tractor was all new and all was in top shape, its when the compression drops and ignitions grow weak and batterys are older and less efficient that oversized batterys n cables (I prefer 00 cables on 6 volts and super heavy duty rated batterys) are a help in starting a 6 volt tractor, but if the tractors in decent shape, a good 6 volt system ought still start her in zero temps. If kept at 6 volts versus 8, the charging systems perform as designed (currents and heat dissipation) for and the coil and points only carry and switch the current they were designed for which increases their useful life.

Great n fun discussion for us sparky types

Take care yall

John T

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Leroy

04-18-2006 05:57:34




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 Re: 6v vs 8v battery in reply to JDknut, 04-18-2006 03:37:50  
Every body talks about proper cables thinking too small were put on but most of the cables were put on as factory orignal or factory replacements and that voltage reducer put in some systems you have to have that extra voltage avaible to get enough voltage thru the voltage reducer to get a spark and a brighter spark will cause less heating of the points and they will last longer. If you could put on a new coil that was guarenteed to put out the voltage it should along with a new voltage reducer that would do the same plus condencer that would do the same, ALL UNLIKELY then you could get by with the 6 volt but unless you want to or even can replace everything at least twice then go for the 8 volt, it will not hurt anything and is a lot easier done than trying all the other options.

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John T

04-17-2006 20:25:33




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 Re: 6v vs 8v battery in reply to rnanorth2, 04-17-2006 15:39:00  
RNA, I am NOT a fan of the 8 volt battery system. If a tractor doesnt crank well at 6 volts, I would install a heavier rated high CCA amp hr battery and use 00 Gauge Battery n Starter n Ground cables and establish good grounds.

As far as charging, if the tractor uses a simple 2 wire Cutout Relay and light switch field current control, she ought to charge maybe at a slight lower rate then at 6 volts but still work. HOWEVER if it uses a full fledged Voltage Regulator having BOTH current and voltage control relays, the VR needs to be tweaked up some to charge an 8 volt battery well.

The lights will still work (brighter) but will burn up sooner.

The Ignition Coil will run hotter plus the points will burn up a bit sooner due to increased current. However, addition of some external series ballast resistance in the ignition coils primary will cure any such problems.

If one is dead set on converting from 6 volts, I would go ahead to the more standard 12 volts n be done with it.

John T in Indiana, retired electrical engineer

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Leroy

04-18-2006 05:46:53




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 Re: 6v vs 8v battery in reply to John T, 04-17-2006 20:25:33  
I have never had a problem with a coil running hot and as for points burning faster never had that, in fact they will last longer do to the fact that there is enough power to do the job, and not overheat the points and make the bright blue spark instead of the wimpy yellow spark. And never found a regulator that had to be changed. And my old (50 year) 6 volt charger will charge them up just fine with no problems.

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John T

04-18-2006 06:15:32




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 Re: 6v vs 8v battery in reply to Leroy, 04-18-2006 05:46:53  
Leroy, You are absolutely correct, if a Voltage Regulator has ONLY current control relay, they will charge fine NO MODIFICATIONS REQUIRED nor would a Cutout Relay require modifications. Its the Voltage Regulators that have VOLTAGE CONTROL RELAYS that must be adjusted to work properly at 8 volts. Some VR's have only current control (2 coils, cutout relay plus current control relay), others current PLUS Voltage (3 coil relays), others have a combined curent and voltage control coil (2 coils). So long as you have the correct VR or a Cutout Relay, they will charge fine.

On the coil, if you increase current through them by increasing their input voltage (8 instead of 6) since I = E/R and Power = Volts x Amps, the heat they dissipate MUST INCREASE or we have violated the laws of thermodynamics and physics. However, it may well not be noticeable from looks or a hand touch as its not all that much of an increase, but it MUST AND WILL RUN WARMER if its voltage and resulting current is increased.

On the points, they are a mechanical current switching device and the same laws of thermodynamics and physics still apply. With more current passing through them and being switched and the accompanying arcing, their life must be shortened somewhat since its the current and heat and arcing that eventually destroys the conductive silver coating.

Its indeed true if you increased the current passing through the coil (which the points switch) you increase the coils stored energy which eventually gets discharged across the plugs gap for a HOTTER HIGHER ENERGY GOOD BLUE SPARK. If you applied 12 volts on tha 6 volt coil the spark would even grow stronger UNTIL THE POINTS BURNED UP AND/OR THE COIL OVERHEATED AND WAS RUINED !!!!! !!!!

Fun discussion yall, hope this helps your understanding

Thanks n God Bless

John T Nordhoff in Indiana, retired Electrical Engineer

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old

04-17-2006 17:47:00




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 Re: 6v vs 8v battery in reply to rnanorth2, 04-17-2006 15:39:00  
Most of the time an 8 volt battery is at best a bandade fix for a bigger problem. If it starts and runs well on 6 volts stay with 6 volts. If it has problems then switch to 12 volts and be done with it. As you said finding a way to charge 8 volt battery is next to finding hens teeth



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Leroy

04-17-2006 16:34:23




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 Re: 6v vs 8v battery in reply to rnanorth2, 04-17-2006 15:39:00  
Your lights will be marked for 6 or 8 volts and I have used 8 volt bateries for over 30 years with no problems



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Ken L

04-17-2006 16:32:55




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 Re: 6v vs 8v battery in reply to rnanorth2, 04-17-2006 15:39:00  
I use 8 volt batteries in 6 volt systems and it does make a difference. I've never changed anything in the charging system and have had no problems.



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Ken Crisman

04-17-2006 16:31:32




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 Re: 6v vs 8v battery in reply to rnanorth2, 04-17-2006 15:39:00  
I was having no problems at all but needed a new battery ; so I switched my Ford 640 to 8v about 6 yrs ago . I just had to replace the battery ; so 5 yrs is good service . The only thing you have to do is have the Voltage Regulator tweaked to put out the 8v . You have to change nothing else at all . My tractor starts faster & my lights are so much brighter . I don't regret it at all . Ken



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karl f

04-17-2006 16:19:43




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 Re: 6v vs 8v battery in reply to rnanorth2, 04-17-2006 15:39:00  
8v is typically considered a quick mask for a problem. with proper sized wires and properly working charging system, a 6v will spin an H fast enough to start, i think i would say it"s almost as fast as my chevy caprice starts. my H has the original wiring yet YUCK! but still spins it fast enough on 6. i dont have to worry about a regulator, i still have the light switch controlled charge rate. new regulators not being polarized and poor grounds are common causes of charging system woes on 6 and 12v generator systems. also, people replacing the original battery cables and wiring with smaller gauge than needed for a 6v system. your starter cables should be no smaller than 1 guage, and probably 0/2 for a long run of cable like youd find on an mta/hundred series. your regulator isnt adjusted or calibrated for 8v so recharging does become an issue. you can try adjusting the regulator but i"d recommend the largest battery in 6v that will fit in your battery box, along with right sized wire/cables, good grounds, and a polarized gen/regulator (or inspect the condition of your light switch/charging rate switch)

good luck
karl f
ase certified auto parts specialist (just had to use it once lol)

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Yugrotcart

04-17-2006 17:20:20




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 Re: 6v vs 8v battery in reply to karl f, 04-17-2006 16:19:43  
Lol..... .. but this is a tractor..... ..... lol



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