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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

on road diesel or off road diesel

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Scott at tioga

03-07-2006 18:40:38




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I was wondering what the difference is between on and off road diesel. i know one is dyed red but how about lubrication, sulfur and does off road make more power?




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john in la

03-08-2006 18:30:52




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 Re: on road diesel or off road diesel in reply to Scott at tioga, 03-07-2006 18:40:38  
It is funny to read some of the comments below but here goes.

Years ago we had only High Sulfur Diesel. Call it #2 diesel; #2 fuel oil or what ever you want it is all the same. It was all sold clear; and red dye was added by the fuel jobber if it was no tax (off road) and the proper paper work was filled out. This fuel is mandated at less than 5000 ppm sulfur but usually runs at about 3500 ppm.

With clean air acts the EPA mandated the use of Low Sulfur diesel for all on road use. It is regulated at less than 500 ppm of sulfur but runs about 350 ppm most times.
The EPA allowed high sulfur to still be used but only for off road use so it is always dyed red.

Since tanks are very expensive most jobbers and some manufactures only stock one kind. Since low sulfur can be used for on road (clear) and off road (dyed red) this is the one they have. Some big jobbers do have different tanks so they can stock high sulfur because the price is a few cents cheaper and their sales can justify the extra tank.

Now we jump to June 1 2006 when we start phasing in Ultra Low sulfur diesel. Mandated to be less than 15 ppm sulfur. This will be your new on road diesel. The EPA should follow through and do away with High sulfur diesel and mandate Low sulfur for off road use.

The more sulfur you take out the fuel the more it cost because of increased refining. It also reduces emissions into the air and contaminates into your engine oil from blow by. The lower sulfur diesel has less lube ability. Modern engines take this into account but older engines do better on high sulfur because the fuel pumps are lubed by the fuel running through them.

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txgrn

03-09-2006 15:28:22




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 Re: on road diesel or off road diesel in reply to john in la, 03-08-2006 18:30:52  
Hi John,

1. Sulphur and H2O form Sulphuric Acid as you know. This in your engine is the "other" menace as compared to dust and dirt ingestion, and oil breakdown due to heat. So lo sulphur is good for the environment and your engine.

2. Around here, like a lot of places, get the same fuel and at the point of use the die is added.

3. I use MMO and Auto tranny (pint of each to 50 gallons) to do the fuel system hygiene and lubrication..... ..... so baby, brig it on.

My 2c

Mark

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DRL

03-08-2006 15:05:54




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 Re: on road diesel or off road diesel in reply to Scott at tioga, 03-07-2006 18:40:38  
Well maybe it's my imagination. The ruby red seems to foam more when filling the tank and has a lot stronger odor. The taxed stuff doesn't seem to foam up much and doesn't have that strong diesel smell. Maybe our red fuel is higher sulfer than the on road.



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Jerry/MT

03-08-2006 10:25:27




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 Re: on road diesel or off road diesel in reply to Scott at tioga, 03-07-2006 18:40:38  
I believe all diesel fuel produced in this country is low sulphur. There is no difference in the heating value of the fuel (BTU/lb) other than the normal variability that you find in any manufactured product. The process that is used to reduce the sulphur down to I believe 0.1% or less causes the fuel to have less lubricity and so additives are added to the fuel in most cases. To be sure, some folks add Stanadyne fuel treatment to their fuel suppy.
The only difference between off road and regular diesel is the road tax and the addition of red dye to denote the tax free status of the off road fuel.

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Jay (ND)

03-08-2006 13:39:58




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 Re: on road diesel or off road diesel in reply to Jerry/MT, 03-08-2006 10:25:27  
Nope, not all diesel is low sulfur, but most is.



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farmerboy

03-08-2006 04:27:37




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 Re: on road diesel or off road diesel in reply to Scott at tioga, 03-07-2006 18:40:38  
Like it's been said, the difference is you get your semi tractor or pickup and any equipment being pulled by it confiscated if you have red diesel in the tank here in Wisconsin.



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colekicker

03-07-2006 22:08:48




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 Re: on road diesel or off road diesel in reply to Scott at tioga, 03-07-2006 18:40:38  
No difference. Back when the hurricane Rita came through, they were in need of diesel and gas at the stations. Color of the diesel didn't matter, just had to get it there. So, red was going into the tanks at some places. Lubrication, no difference. Just think, what is more expensive, a new diesel pickup or a $250,000 new tractor.



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txgrn

03-08-2006 06:39:05




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 Re: on road diesel or off road diesel in reply to colekicker, 03-07-2006 22:08:48  
Texas did the same thing; I think it was Bush who waived the tax requirement temporarily because of Katrina and Rita. Haven't kept up with it so I don't know what the status is today.

Mark



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Fuel Pump

03-07-2006 21:37:30




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 Re: on road diesel or off road diesel in reply to Scott at tioga, 03-07-2006 18:40:38  
Scott what youve been told here sums it up. My family is in the fuel business and the only diff is the dye goes in the tank.
At one time they had a low sulpher and high sulpher but the cost at the refinery was not feasible so they jsut went with the dye so they get the taxes.
Thats one you can thank Al Gore for



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Jay (ND)

03-07-2006 21:56:00




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 Re: on road diesel or off road diesel in reply to Fuel Pump, 03-07-2006 21:37:30  
What you have said is true most places, not all.



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John A.

03-07-2006 20:41:33




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 Re: on road diesel or off road diesel in reply to Scott at tioga, 03-07-2006 18:40:38  
Scott, The only differenc is "#2 red dye" I have seen many, many, semi-loads of diesel made into off road with a half gal of red dye marker.
We would order aa semi-load of diesel, It would arrive as road fuel, the driver would dump the red dye into the hose then hook up to our tank then pump it in, all 8500 gallons. All our fuel came out of the Diamond Shamrock plant @ Sunray,Texas!
Later,
John A.

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paul

03-07-2006 19:58:28




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 Re: on road diesel or off road diesel in reply to Scott at tioga, 03-07-2006 18:40:38  
There can be many grades & additive packages for fuel.

Any of them can be sold as taxed fuel.

Or it can have the red dye added, & be sold tax free.

So, there might be quality differences, but there is no way to _know_ that.

The only difference you can know for sure is the tax status of the fuel.

--->Paul



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marksoldtractors

03-07-2006 19:56:46




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 Re: on road diesel or off road diesel in reply to Scott at tioga, 03-07-2006 18:40:38  
The difference is that the clear is taxed for road use where the dyed is untaxed for farm use (non-road). We live in Maryland and the fine if you get caught with ANY off-road diesel in your vehicle is $10,000. In our area, they have people who ride around in trucks and randomly pull people over (trucks and tractor/trailers) and check the fuel tank. Also, we were told by a friend who lives in Ohio that in Ohio and probably other states that DOT goes around to tractor shows checking tanks in tractors and you will be fined if they find dyed fuel in your show tractor (unless you can prove you use it to farm with). Either way, it isn"t worth to save a little money. It"s our wonderful government who claims to be on our side at work again!!!

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txgrn

03-08-2006 06:35:37




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 Re: on road diesel or off road diesel in reply to marksoldtractors, 03-07-2006 19:56:46  
I don't know about that. The tax is a road tax, not farm tax. If you don't use it on the road, you don't pay for using the road....at least here in Texas.

Now if you drive your show tractor down the road from your farm to a parade in the local town (as I have) you could be held liable, but they don't harass farmers here. Besides the town was so thankful to have somebody to parade in the parade, I got (as others) a letter of thanks from the mayor for participating.

Like boats, if you use enough fuel to justify it (the trouble), you can fill out a reimbersment form and get your road tax money back. BTDT

Mark

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txgrn

03-07-2006 19:27:31




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 Re: on road diesel or off road diesel in reply to Scott at tioga, 03-07-2006 18:40:38  
40c savings in Texas. $2000 fine if caught. No longer deliver undyed farm diesel to your property. Now my neighbor can't fill up his p/u after he fills his tractor (on a goosneck trailer) and head to town to mow grass for someone for a fee. Did I step on any toes? Sorry,

Mark



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dan67

03-07-2006 19:14:33




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 Re: on road diesel or off road diesel in reply to Scott at tioga, 03-07-2006 18:40:38  
road tax vs no road tax thats about it. depend on state but here in or it about 27cent a gallon



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720LYLE

03-07-2006 19:07:59




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 Re: on road diesel or off road diesel in reply to Scott at tioga, 03-07-2006 18:40:38  
Just curious if there has been an additive developed to clear up the fuel. There are radar units and then radar detectors produced by the same company. anything like that for dye?



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ramblineagle

03-07-2006 19:05:16




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 Re: on road diesel or off road diesel in reply to Scott at tioga, 03-07-2006 18:40:38  
do not get caught with red diesel in your vehicle tank.[car,pickup,or truck] HEAVY FINE for that, and that is just the begining.



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marlowe

03-07-2006 18:49:37




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 Re: on road diesel or off road diesel in reply to Scott at tioga, 03-07-2006 18:40:38  
same stuff comes in the same truck and they add dye at the tank at the gas station but our balk truck adds it to his tank at his fill site. just watched the tanker at a BP station do it today he had about a quart that he added as he filled the tank and then moved his hose to the road tank



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