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cubic inches?

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Jim Johnson

03-26-2006 21:39:24




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I was wondering if someone could tell me the formula to figure the cubes from bore and stroke. I'd appreciate the help.




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Handy

03-27-2006 13:01:13




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 Re: cubic inches? in reply to Jim Johnson, 03-26-2006 21:39:24  
Handy Conversion Table: Save to Disk.



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not yet

03-27-2006 09:30:53




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 Re: cubic inches? in reply to Jim Johnson, 03-26-2006 21:39:24  
How do you determine the affects of a turbo? Cubic inches stays the same. Is it a percent of the cubic inches to determine the extra horsepower? Just curious. Very interesting tropic.



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Specter

03-27-2006 08:21:22




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 Re: cubic inches? in reply to Jim Johnson, 03-26-2006 21:39:24  
Here's the formula I learn in school to find the volume of a cylinder:

PiRsquared x height x # of cylinders

In better terms, take half the bore, multiply it by itself, multiply it 3.14, multiply it by your stroke, and then multiply by the number of cylinders. It should look kind of like this:

1/2 bore x 1/2 bore x 3.14 x stroke x number of cylinders.

The end result should be very close to the total volume, whether you use cubic inches or cubic centimeters.

I hope my explanatain isn't just confusing things further! ;-)

Specter

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Jim Johnson

03-27-2006 07:30:56




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 Re: cubic inches? in reply to Jim Johnson, 03-26-2006 21:39:24  
I thank you guys for your help especially Tim, yours wasn't Greek.



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jdemaris

03-27-2006 07:18:23




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 It is complicated - combustion chambers count in reply to Jim Johnson, 03-26-2006 21:39:24  
To be technical, it is not just the bore and stroke times the number of cylinders, but that gets you close. The combustion chambers are supposed to be added. Cubin inch displacement includes the entire combustion chamber, so the area in the cylinder head - if one exists, is also supposed to be factored in. Diesels often have it in the piston head instead. With some companies, sometimes they choose to do it, and sometimes not. Also factored in is the top piston-ring height, the piston skirt clearance and the head gasket thickness. One example is a 396 cubic inch Chevy engine. It is eight cylinders, bore 4.09" X 3.76" stroke. Chevy called it a 396 but rated the actual cubic inches as 402. The 4.09" bore is halved = thus 2.045", then squared = 4.182", then multiplied times PI (3.14), so 3.14 X 4.182" = 13.131 square inches - the area of the bore. Take the 13.131 X the stroke of 3.76" and the volume of one cylinder is 49.37 cubic inches. Multiply times the number of cylinders - 8, and it equals 394.9 cubic inches. Chevy lists it as 402 cubic inches, assuming they've added in the combustion chamber volumes and other stuff. There are lots of calculators on the Net or as computer programs, but they require data on headgasket thickness, combustion chamber volumes, etc. in addition to bore and stroke.

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MarkB_MI

03-27-2006 19:09:08




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 Re: It is complicated - combustion chambers count in reply to jdemaris, 03-27-2006 07:18:23  
JD,

The reason it's called "displacement" is because that's what it is: the volume displaced by the pistons as the engine goes through one complete combustion cycle (2 revolutions for a 4 stroke engine, 1 revolution for a 2 stroke engine.) The volume of the combustion chambers is not "displaced", and is not used to calculate displacement.

Combustion chamber volume is, however, used to calculate compression ratio. Compression ratio is the ratio of the volume of the total cylinder volume when the piston is at bottom dead center to cylinder volume at top dead center. In other words, (Displacement + CCVolume)/CCVolume.

Now if we choose to include combustion chamber volume in total displacement as you suggest, there's an obvious problem: If we increase the size of our combustion chamber, displacement goes up, and so should horsepower. But any hotrodder will tell you that horsepower will decrease as you increase the combustion chamber volume because the compression ratio drops. Keep displacement and combustion chamber volume separate and everything makes sense: Bigger chamber, lower compression, less power. Smaller chamber, more compression, more power.

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jdemaris

03-27-2006 20:12:47




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 Words change over time in reply to MarkB_MI, 03-27-2006 19:09:08  
What you are saying would be fine if all words meant the same thing, all the time, regardless of context. Our language does not work that way - never has and never will. Many words and phrases used today connote a different meaning than a hundred or so years ago. I can give you hundreds of examples if desired. Decimate used to mean to destroy by ten-fold. Now, it simply means to destroy a lot of stuff. The phrase "four stroke cycle" used to mean something just by the words it contained, now the same engine type is referred to as "four cycle" which, taken at "word value", makes no sense - a so-called four cycle engine has only one cycle composed of four-srokes. How about the word "gay." It's a French word for brightly colored. 40-50 years ago, "gay" meant happy. And, what does it usually mean today? Diesel fuel used to be the fuel Rudolph Diesel ran his engine with - peanut oil. Thus the language in change. There are some places, like France, that have tried to make and enforce rules so word-meanings stay the same, forever. But, this is not France. The primary/standard defintion of a "dead language" is a language that no longer changes - and American English has not died yet. Making the argument that "what makes sense" must be correct, is not a valid way to prove something. I suspect - but cannot verify - that the term "cubic inch displacement originally evolved from exactly what you've mentioned - i.e. how much area is actually being displaced - in this case - by the travel of the piston from BTC to TDC. Perhaps a measurements for steam engines. Many older spec. sheets for engines are more specific, and will state "piston displacement" instead of a general term i.e. "cubic inch displacement" or "engine displacement." So, today, with the phrase "cubic inch displacement", the meaning depends on who is using it, and why, and where. As aforementioned, various racing organizatons absolutely DO require combustion chamber volume to be factored into cubic inch displacement. And, some don't. It appears, just as many words have multiple definitions and usages, so do many phrases. Seems "cubic inch displacement" can denote the area being displaced by a moving piston or rotor, and can also indicate the total area of combustion activity within an engine. I can cite references, and/or cut and paste here pages of rules set forth by aforementioned organizations explaining their requirements for calculating what they call "cubic inch displacment." What reference are you using that indicates I am in error? In regard to calculating compression ratio - what you stated works for the "mechancial compression ratio", but not the "effective compression ratio." A bigger chamber does not have to result in a drop in horsepower if the "effective compression ratio" is raised by alternative means, e.g. intercooling to condense air by temperature drop, or a turbocharger or supercharger by raising PSI.

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MarkB_MI

03-28-2006 03:41:34




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 Re: Words change over time in reply to jdemaris, 03-27-2006 20:12:47  
JD,

I prefer to use the accepted engineering definition of displacement, as opposed to some arbitrary rule cooked up by some racing league bureaucrats. When you buy a car, the advertised engine displacement is not based on some handicapping formula, it's actual engine displacement.

Yes, there are many things you can do to compensate for increased combustion chamber volume. But if you do nothing else, compression ratio and power are reduced as the CC volume increases.

As far as "effective compression ratio" goes, there is no such thing. Supercharging will increase power and combustion chamber pressure, but it does not change compression ratio. Ask any mechanical engineer.

If I google on "engine displacement defined", here's the first hit I get.

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jdemaris

03-28-2006 05:58:35




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 That is rediculous in reply to MarkB_MI, 03-28-2006 03:41:34  
To say "there is no such thing" as effective compression ratio is plain rediculous. Do a tech library or your Google search and you'll find thousands of articles on the subject. From a general point of logic, it is one thing to say you know, for sure, the existence of something. But, to say, you know for sure something DOES NOT EXIST is silly. To do so with accuracy, you would need to know everything there is to know. I don't. I suppose you don't either. You advise me to "ask any mechanical engineer", I have. I've worked with many and I know several, including both my wife's parents who are both retired engineers from Ford Motor Co. - one from the engine-design department. I've read many spec. sheets on proposals for engine designs included Daimler's patent of a supercharger in 1885. Mechanical(static) compression ratio versus effective (dynamic) compression ratio has been a recognized factor in literature I've read dating back to the early 1900s. I've got no issue with anybody accepting and using whatever definition they choose. My point is, it does NOT mean the same thing everywhere. A close friend of mine worked as a English-German technical-language translator - and it's a tough job since words in the technical world often have different meaning elsewhere. Ever notice how screwed up instructions are at times with Chinese stuff? That's a tech-translation Chinese - English problem. YOU claim "there is no such thing" as effective ccompression ratio. Wrong. I guess I should tell you the same thing you first told me - ask a mechanical engineer - but make sure he/she is acquainted with internal-combustion engine design. The bore and stroke is one factor that determines compression. Just as important in valve timing since no compression takes place with an open valve. Add into that, super-cooled or pressurized intake air, and find a way to time its entry, and "effective compression ratio" becomes a dominate factor. Many turbocharged engines have to be built with a lower mechanical compression ratio than their non-turbo versions, because the resulting "effective compression ratio" ends up being very high. In regard to "first hits" you get on Google, first hits have nothing to do with validity. First hits are determined by meta-tags inserted into the background hypertext markup language (HTML) on webpages, and how much money is paid to search-engine companies to reference it quickly. Achieving "first hits" is a specialty in itself for webpage publishers. I do it for several real-estate companies.

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Tramway Guy

03-27-2006 08:41:36




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 Re: It is complicated - combustion chambers count in reply to jdemaris, 03-27-2006 07:18:23  
Jdemaris, the displacement does not matter how the combustion chamber is shaped or the head gasket or anything else. It is just (the area of the piston) times (the stroke) times (the number of cylinders). The combustion chamber and all the other stuff you mention is pertinent to figuring the compression ratio, however.
I have never heard of a 396 being called a 402. And if you use the more accepted value of pi as 3.14159, you come closer to 396....

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Mark - IN.

03-27-2006 21:19:28




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 Re: It is complicated - combustion chambers count in reply to Tramway Guy, 03-27-2006 08:41:36  
Actually, in '71 the 396 was bored .030 over from 4.096" to 4.126" from the factory, hence the 402. Folks used to say had a 400, and others would incorrectly ask "big or small block". Was a small block 400, and a big block 402. Not the same.

Wanna really screw someone up? Give him a '68 or earlier big block cam to use in a '69 or later big block. The cams of a '68 or earlier had a large groove on the rear journal, and the bearing had a 1/16" hole for oiling. In '69, that groove went away, and the hole in the bearing was increased to 1/8". So, if use a '68 or earlier cam in a '69 or newer big block and don't solder the oiling hole shut in the rear cam bearing and re-drill at 1/16", can watch the oil pressure drop to zero, and adios amigos to the bearings. I did that to a friend by accident once for his brand spanking newly rebuilt '70 396. He came over and borrowed a cam, I grabbed one out of a box that was perfect in durations and lifts, and forgot and looked right at that groove but didn't think about that groove. I saw him the next day and asked how the race went, and he said must've had a defective oil pump because lost all pressure, and scrapped it. That's when I remembered the groove. I picked that cam up for '66 427 that I hadn't finished. YOUCH! I never did tell him about that, nor did I ask him to pay me for the cam.

Mark

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jdemaris

03-27-2006 11:06:27




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 I don't agree, cite your references please in reply to Tramway Guy, 03-27-2006 08:41:36  
I don't agree, where does your information come from? Technically speaking, it is as I stated. Various racing organizations use different rules for calculating engine size, and in each case - cubic inch displacement is whatever THEY say it is. In racing, general designations of engine size don't count - like 283, 327,350, 396, etc. When companies are selling cars, trucks, or tractors - general is fine. NHRA rules, e.g., use the variables I stated to determine cubic inch displacement, included chamber sizes. Some other racing organizations also count wear, including excessive piston to cylinder clearance above the top ring. NRA in super-stock does it different. They state "Formula for determining cubic inch displacement: Bore x Bore x. 7854 x Stroke equals cubic inch displacement of each cylinder. The cubic inch displacement of each cylinder added together will determine the total the total cubic inch displacement of the engine." That goes with the more common approach as you mentioned. To be precise, which is sometimes required, cubic inch displacement is a measurement of the internal-combustion and power making area of an engine. If you could pour water into a spark-plug hole, with the piston at bottom-dead-center, and fill the area until it overflowed, and then remove the water and measure - that would be the area, i.e. the cubic inch or centimeter volumetric displacement. The thicker the head gasket, the more area. The larger the combustion chamber in the head, the more area. And yes, of course these variables are used to figure compression. The compression ratio is a direct result of the cubic inch displacement at BTC compared to TDC. The "effective" compression ratio is a result of those factors plus the caculated amount of air that enters. This changes when atmospheric pressure is exceeded (supercharger or turbocharger), or air temperature is lowered, thus condensing the air (intercooler).

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Chad Franke

03-27-2006 09:08:01




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 Re: It is complicated - combustion chambers count in reply to Tramway Guy, 03-27-2006 08:41:36  
In 71 (I think) Chevy gave the 396 a "factory bore job", still called it a 396, but with a .030 inch overbore, displacement was about 402...

And the displacement is the area displaced by the piston during travel. Volume at bottom minus volume at top, only thing that changes is the piston moves, so area in the head doesn't effect displacement.



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Mark - IN.

03-27-2006 06:03:37




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 Re: cubic inches? in reply to Jim Johnson, 03-26-2006 21:39:24  
Is bore x bore x stroke x sum of tolerances x number of cylinders.

The sum of tolerances are those for your main and rod bearings and wrist pins (both rod and piston).

Mark



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Tim Shaw

03-27-2006 05:52:22




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 Re: cubic inches? in reply to Jim Johnson, 03-26-2006 21:39:24  
Bore x Bore x Stroke x # of Cylinders x .7854.

Example a 350 Chevy: 4 x 4 x 3.48 x 8 x .7854 = 349.85.



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Stan - Florida

03-27-2006 04:51:01




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 Re: cubic inches? in reply to Jim Johnson, 03-26-2006 21:39:24  
Jim,

Do you have Excel in your computer? I suspect you do. If so, I have an Excel spreadheet that will allow you to plug in bore and stroke and number of cylinders and it will calculate cubic inches.

Just for modern-day comparison, I put in a column that coverts cubic inches to liters, and just for grins, the next column converts liters to quarts. Why did I do that one? I still haven't adjusted to metric numbers, so quarts is a number I can relate to...LOL! No comments about "quarts of what?", please.

If anyone wants to respond by e-mail, I'd be glad to send them the spreadsheet.

Stan

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oleblu

03-27-2006 04:42:53




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 Re: cubic inches? in reply to Jim Johnson, 03-26-2006 21:39:24  
Do a Google search for Foothills Antique Tractor Club and look in the technical section. Punch in the numbers and hit compute and you have it.



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RAB

03-26-2006 22:16:21




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 Re: cubic inches? in reply to Jim Johnson, 03-26-2006 21:39:24  
Pi*D squared*the stroke*the number of pots/4. Dimensions in inches.
Pi = 22/7
D = Diameter of bore
Hope this helps.
Regards, RAB



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