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Questions about AIR BRAKES ???

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Way Up Here

01-11-2006 18:47:13

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Have a couple of questions about air brakes:

1. How exactly do air brakes work? I'd like a step by step sequence of applying pedal to brakes grabbing please.

2. Why are air brakes better or at least why are they used on bigger equipment?

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mno

01-12-2006 21:00:06

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Re: Questions about AIR BRAKES ??? in reply to Way Up Here, 01-11-2006 18:47:13

I hauled coal for 13 yrs.and work on r.road for 15yrs.you are right air does apply the service brakes on trucks when you lose air,springs operates the emer.or parking brake. on trains as you pull the air down brakes applys,as long as you don"t go to far then they wiil go into emer. also the same as if you lost all your air.and you let 992 cat.push you up hills and put 75 tons of coal on you, you"ll get some hot brakes comimg down.

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RodInNS

01-12-2006 14:27:20

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Re: Questions about AIR BRAKES ??? in reply to Way Up Here, 01-11-2006 18:47:13

Air brakes are used on heavy trucks and equipment due to the ease of applying large amounts of breaking power with minimum driver effort, along with the ease of coupling multiple units together. Air lines are easy and reliable to couple; hydraulic lines are not so easy of reliable. The fail safe aspect of the system is also of primary concern. As has been stated in several other posts, if the truck starts losing air pressure, the maxi (parking) brakes will start to apply below 60 PSI. Short of having a quick release valve fail with the maxi's off, or the adjustment being run out too far, air brakes are fail safe. They will always stop you in the event of no air.
The system itself consists of a compressor, quite often an air dryer, then a primary resevoir, and then often a secondary resevoir, with check valves between the tanks. From there the service brakes are controlled by a treadle valve, with the front wheels getting air supply directly from the treadle valve, and each axle behind having it's own relay valve, which is controlled by the treadle valve. The relay valves are tied into the air tanks by large lines, to provide quick supply of air close to the brake chambers. The service brakes are applied by air pressure, which can range up to 150 PSI on some trucks, depending upon how high the govenors are turned up on the compressor.
The parking brakes are applied by spring pressure. As stated above, the system needs about 60 PSI to fully release the parking brakes. The maxi brakes are also set up with a quick release valve near the rear axles to speed the release of air form the chambers, rather than exhaust the air out through the control valve in the dash. The brake chambers themselves are shown in another post, with the single chambers being a straight service brake, and the double chamber being a piggyback, with the service and parking brake acting on the same linkage. The brake chambers themselves act on a slack adjuster, which turns an S-cam, which acts on hte rollers of the brake shoes. The shoe rollers ride the "S", and cause the shoe to expand against the drum. The slack adjuster is used to compensate for wear in the shoes, while keeping the the chamber rod within it's operating limits. That's about the extent of it, summed up in one page.... from a 30 page book.....
Air brakes are generally more reliable than hydraulic brakes, with the exception of systems that are bad to freeze without the air dryer. Gotta have that up here in the great white north.... Hope I didn't create more confusion...

Rod

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old

01-12-2006 21:19:04

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Re: Questions about AIR BRAKES ??? in reply to RodInNS, 01-12-2006 14:27:20

You did a very good job of explain the way they work sure better then I was doing. Did you know that before 1965 a lot of big rigs didn't have front axle brakes?? I still own one that doesn't have them.

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RodInNS

01-14-2006 13:56:43

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Re: Questions about AIR BRAKES ??? in reply to old, 01-12-2006 21:19:04

Hey Old,
No, I didn't know that. The "old" systems that I've seen around had the front limiting valve, and the Eagle I've got doesn't even have that. One of our Fire trucks still has a front limiting valve, but DOT up here has a hate for them..... To be quite honest, '65 was a fair bit before my time..... You wern't doing so bad explaining either..... but man, I didn't realise how much misinformation is out there on Air brakes.... and these people are driving heavy trucks? Take care.

Rod

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old

01-14-2006 14:06:49

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Re: Questions about AIR BRAKES ??? in reply to RodInNS, 01-14-2006 13:56:43

Now days the driveing schools teach the guy how to sit behind the wheel and shift the gears but thats about it. Most don't have a clue how things work which is ok as long as things are working right but, if something brakes then a lot of them are in trouble big time and of course anything that get in the way it also in trouble. Shoot did you know that a car/truck built before 1965 or so you don't have to have seat belts and they can't give you a ticket for not useing them unless they where in there from the factory??

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RodInNS

01-15-2006 09:25:02

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Re: Questions about AIR BRAKES ??? in reply to old, 01-14-2006 14:06:49

Old, you're right about the driving schools. Only thing I'd add is that they teach them all about log books and doing their paperwork correctly.... but they're a whole different breed when they're on the road. Kinda like the Pinto... unsafe at any speed, and all cock and bull. Buddy of mine that's driven for 30 years was telling me a story about a driver from one of the larger local companys. He was making a delivery to a jobsite they were working on. Got there, dropped off on the side of the road, no problem, but then wanted to know where he could turn. They told him, just go up the road a mile or so to the church and turn there. Lots of room. Well, he came back 1/2 an hour later, bitchin' and moanin', there was no room to turn there and he had to go way up the road to find another place. Giving these guys crap, and they been turning loaded tridems there in snowstorms for 30 years.... Some know how to drive, and some don't..... This guy was a recent driving school grad.... They laughed for weeks after that episode.
BTW, I did know about the seat belts. My uncle has an old '66 Meteor with drum brakes all around, single master cylinder, and I think lap belts..... . but I'm not sure about that. Belt laws up here I think were slacker for longer, but they clamped down in the early 80's, and now everybody has to wear one. Oh well.... Take care.

Rod

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old

01-15-2006 09:45:20

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Re: Questions about AIR BRAKES ??? in reply to RodInNS, 01-15-2006 09:25:02

Only reason I know about the seat belt law is because I own a 1963 Diamond-T and I got pulled over by D.O.T. I was asked if I had my seat belt on and I said it didn't have one. They said we have to write you a ticket, when they asked the year I told them 1963 and the guy said wel forget that ticket you don't have to have one since its a pre 1965 truck they may not have had one from the factory and if it didn't you don't have to wear one.

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George in Biloxi

01-12-2006 08:52:36

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Re: Questions about AIR BRAKES ??? in reply to Way Up Here, 01-11-2006 18:47:13

A good little article.

http://www.newbiedriver.com/ABCsUpdates/AirBrakes101.htm

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Allan in NE

01-12-2006 04:29:21

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Re: Questions about AIR BRAKES ??? in reply to Way Up Here, 01-11-2006 18:47:13

Boy, I dunno, you guys.

Been a lot of years since I worked on the big rigs, but I've never, ever heard of the air applying the brakes. The air pressure releases the brakes.

The "parking brake" uses the truck's same braking system and just dumps the air.

Just can't believe that the whole industry standard has been flipped 180 degrees since I was last in these things???

Allan

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old

01-12-2006 07:44:43

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Re: Questions about AIR BRAKES ??? in reply to Allan in NE, 01-12-2006 04:29:21

Allan, Yep air supplys the brakes and springs are for parking them. I've even got a catalog sitting right here from Air Brake Specialties which tells you how to plumb it and all. Before the Calf. brake system that may have been true but it isn't any more. The system is set up now days so if you loose your air preasure the parking brakes lock up on you and that is real fun if you know what I mean.

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the tractor vet

01-12-2006 06:22:49

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Re: Questions about AIR BRAKES ??? in reply to Allan in NE, 01-12-2006 04:29:21

Since i first parked my donkey in a big truck back in 63 alot has changed with the air brake system and the first truck was a 57 B61 Mack that was a 6 Cyl. gas with a 5 and a 4 speed trans it had no spring parking brake system just the big old drum on the drive shaft and the hand parking brake that was just about useless and if you lost air pressure you had NO BRAKES now to day on your air brake system you have a piggy back system one side is a vary heavy spring and it requires air pressure to release the brakes and the other side of the chamber applys the brakes with air pressure so if your air pressure drops below about 60-65 lbs then the spring brakes come on automaticly and should LOCK the brakes up , your foot valve works like the reg on a tourch set and regulates the amount of air that you manualy apply with your big old foot and usualy it take around 20- 40 LBS of applyed air pressure for a normal stop , depending on the size of the truck and the size of the brake the brake chambers range from the small one on the steering axel of 4 inches on up to 8 inches on the heavy duty steering axel from 6 inches to 9 inches on the driver and trailers. And the sizes on the drum brakes come in all sizes . The one Dump trailer that i had had 14 inch wide brakes on it better knowen as mountain brakes but any brake will fade with heat even a disc but not as fast as a drum .

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Stan(PA)

01-12-2006 05:59:40

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Re: Questions about AIR BRAKES ??? in reply to Allan in NE, 01-12-2006 04:29:21

Years ago I worked for an excavating outfit as a dump truck driver. Truck was a Mack, and the brake system was not in A-1 shape. I remember revving engine if I needed to brake twice in a short span. If I didn"t get that compressor to build pressure back up fast enough... no brakes! If it worked the way you`re saying, they would have locked up. I don"t pretend to know much about air brakes, but I do know I lost my brakes in the tank pressure went down. Another thing, ever "blow a pancake"? When I did, I lost brakes, they didn"t lock up ....Stan

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old

01-12-2006 07:50:56

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Re: Questions about AIR BRAKES ??? in reply to Stan(PA), 01-12-2006 05:59:40

Thats just means you had a truck that didn't have what is called Calf. Brakes. The newer systems have a parking brake so that if you loose air at least one set of brakes will lock up. I quit driveing truck in 2000, so its still freash in my mind on how they work and when you drive a dump truck back wards in places that a 6 inch mistake makes you go swimming you learn fast how things work and how not to screw up LOL

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Allan in NE

01-12-2006 06:31:06

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Re: Questions about AIR BRAKES ??? in reply to Stan(PA), 01-12-2006 05:59:40

Well,

I'm not going to enter into a big screamin' match here because it has been too many years since I worked on 'em and I probably wouldn�t remember correctly anyway, but there are straight air brakes and there are air over hydraulic systems. Additionally, some smaller outfits use a vacuum over hydraulic system.

The different systems work totally "backwards" from one another, depending on the system used.

However, I do have a very vivid recollection of crawlin� under �bout what seemed to be a million rigs to tighten down the snubbers on each wheel's actuator can to make �em release when they are dead in the water and the air tanks were empty.

Heck, I dunno.

Allan

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john in la

01-12-2006 05:45:18

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Re: Questions about AIR BRAKES ??? in reply to Allan in NE, 01-12-2006 04:29:21

No Allen the concept has been the same for many years.
The system you are thinking of is used on trains or at least I think it is. With a mile of cars you would need a lot of air storage to apply brakes so they use the remove air spring apply system.

But in large trucks this is not so because we need response quickly and the system is small enough to have storage capacity.
On a modern truck their is 2 types of brake chambers. 1 is for stopping only (small one) with 1 chamber; and 1 has 2 chambers. 1 for stopping and 1 for spring parking brakes.

third party image

Lets look at a trailer as it is easier to explain. You build pressure in the truck and push in the red valve. This supplies a constant supply of air through the red hose which in turn releases the spring parking brakes. If this supply of air is ever loss the parking brakes will set under spring pressure. This is one system.
Now we have a totally different system that uses the blue hose. When you push on the foot valve air is sent through the blue hose to the brake chamber. This air pushes on a diaphragm which pushes on a rod that activates the brakes.

Concept of Air Brake System 1
Concept of Air Brake System 2

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Leland

01-12-2006 10:55:18

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Re: Questions about AIR BRAKES ??? in reply to john in la, 01-12-2006 05:45:18

you have to watch when working on those maxi brake chambers they are like a 44 mag they will remove your head clean off your shoulders many a person have been killed trying to service them .

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Island A

01-12-2006 10:47:47

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Re: Questions about AIR BRAKES ??? in reply to john in la, 01-12-2006 05:45:18

Air brakes on trains are different than road trucks. Air is used to apply the brakes. It is a whole long story to describe but it involves storage reservoirs with air activated valves. Removing air from the brake pipe will cause an equal amonut of air to be applied in the brake cylinder. Since this is not the topic of conversation I will leave it at that.
Road trucks have two types of systems, air applies the brakes but releases the spring brakes, which come on if your air runs out.
Dave

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IaGary

01-12-2006 05:30:26

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Re: Questions about AIR BRAKES ??? in reply to Allan in NE, 01-12-2006 04:29:21

I'm with Allan and if that is not the way they work I've been thinking wrong. After reading all the replies I'm even more confused.

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Bob

01-12-2006 07:11:40

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Re: Questions about AIR BRAKES ??? in reply to IaGary, 01-12-2006 05:30:26

With NO AIR in your service brake system, you will have no service brakes.

The spring-operated parking brakes will not come on until you apply the parking brake, which "dumps" the air from the parking brake system. At that point, the spring brakes will remain on until the system pressure comes up, and the parking brakes can release.

Typically, there are no "spring brakes" on the front axle, and on only one of the rear axles (we're keeping it simple, and talking "straight truck" here), so, when you have no service brake pressure, and apply the parking brakes, yes, you will have brakes, but not on all the axles, and the spring does not apply as much pressure as the air does, when the system is working, so you will have less brakeing effect even on the axles WITH the spring brakes. But it's better than NOTHING!

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Island A

01-12-2006 10:43:40

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Re: Questions about AIR BRAKES ??? in reply to Bob, 01-12-2006 07:11:40

I disagree. One of the tests we are supposed to perform is to shut off the rig and release the parking brake (use wheel chocks) at which time you pump the brake pedal until your air pressure gets so low the spring brakes come on. This is an important safety feature! Dave

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old

01-12-2006 07:58:25

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Re: Questions about AIR BRAKES ??? in reply to Bob, 01-12-2006 07:11:40

Bob, Sorry have to disagree with you on one point. If your driveing down the road, and you loose your air supply, the spring brakes will and do come on and theres nothing in the world you can do to stop it from happening. The system is set up that way for safety. Let me tell you when your driveing and you see the air going down fast and then start hereing that parking brake start to make its noise your sitting there jamming gears and look for a place to jump off and praying you can find a lower gear, find a place to hide and do all that before the parking brake knob pops out becuase your air has dropped below 40-60 PSI depending on the system Bene there and done that way to many times. But I do have over a mil and a half miles under my belt.

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Hugh MacKay

01-12-2006 01:21:37

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Re: Questions about AIR BRAKES ??? in reply to Way Up Here, 01-11-2006 18:47:13

If you go to your local DOT office, they have a book on air brakes. I understand this book is used in every state and province as the official learning guide for drivers wanting air brake endorsement attached to their drivers licence. My son has mine right now or I could give you the exact title. Most jurisdicitions charge about $20. for this book. The book will take you through every aspect of air brakes.

In the meantime if you must know the quality of air brakes, find a guy who has his trailer unhooked. Ask him to let you drive his tractor 40' then step on brakes as you would in any traffic emergency. When you get the steering wheel disembeded from your abdomin and get you wind back you can tell us how they worked.

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old

01-11-2006 20:39:33

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Re: Questions about AIR BRAKES ??? in reply to Way Up Here, 01-11-2006 18:47:13

I found the book plus another book if you really want the info. The one book has 7 pages of info and pictures and the other one has a lot of pictures showing how they are plumbed

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dan67

01-11-2006 19:38:34

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Re: Questions about AIR BRAKES ??? in reply to Way Up Here, 01-11-2006 18:47:13

also easy way to connect and disconnect muiltable trailers (Brake system wise)

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john in la

01-11-2006 19:33:29

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Re: Questions about AIR BRAKES ??? in reply to Way Up Here, 01-11-2006 18:47:13

It would take a book or at least a few pages to give a step by step with all the valves and safety devices installed in a air brake system.

Such as one valve that delays air to the truck for that mila second to give the air supply time to reach the trailer when you step on the pedal.

Beside the lack of brake fade I think one other point for air brakes on large trucks is the ability to apply large amounts of brake pressure (max air supply of 125psi) by pushing on pedal and only using the force on your foot to open the valve.

In hyd brakes your foot applies the pressure. Yes it is assisted in new cars with vacuum brake boosters (power brakes) but it is nothing like opening a valve and applying 125psi of pressure.
You would need gorilla legs to apply this kind of pressure with hyd brakes.

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old

01-11-2006 19:24:58

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Re: Questions about AIR BRAKES ??? in reply to Way Up Here, 01-11-2006 18:47:13

If I can find the book and you send me an e-mail I can send you a page from an air brake manual that may explain how they work and the reasons for them.

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Bob

01-11-2006 19:15:28

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Re: Questions about AIR BRAKES ??? in reply to Way Up Here, 01-11-2006 18:47:13

1.) An engine-driven compressor builds up air pressure in the storage tank(s), typically about 120 PSI. When you step on the treadle valve, air pressure is delivered to the individual wheel brakes, often through a series of relay valves, for quick operation.

When you release the valve, air is dumped from the system, often with the aid of "quick release valves", and the brakes release.

ABS systems have added a whole layer of complexity, but that describes the basic operation of a simple system.

2.) One reason air brakes may be better, is that they do not suffer from brake "fade" caused under conditions of heavy braking and high temperatures, where brake fluid boils, and gets bubbles in it, and is less effective at aplying the brakes.

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John (C-IL)

01-11-2006 19:42:39

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Re: Questions about AIR BRAKES ??? in reply to Bob, 01-11-2006 19:15:28

The air system uses a large spring to apply the brakes. The function of the air is to compress the spring and release the brakes. The reason air is preferred in large operations is that it takes less power to keep air stored to release the brakes than power to hydraulics to apply the brakes in a hydraulic system.

The brakes in these large systems can get very hot very fast, so hot that unnoticed they can catch a tire on tire along with the axle grease and eventually the truck it"s self.

The default position for air brakes is APPLIED. No air = brakes on. The default position for hydraulic brakes is brakes off. No hydraulics = no brakes.

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old

01-11-2006 20:02:40

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Re: Questions about AIR BRAKES ??? in reply to John (C-IL), 01-11-2006 19:42:39

John is correct the spring is used to apply parking brakes not to appy the brake when going down the road. Back some time in the late 50s or early 60s that made it law to have the brakes set up with that type of parking brakes because of to many big rig roll offs. that system is called or was called Calf. brakes. By the way those spring brake pods are sealed so not day they can not be opened up because to many people lost there heads or part of them tring to fix them with out the right tools. I still have a few of them in my junk pile.

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john in la

01-11-2006 19:52:02

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Re: Questions about AIR BRAKES ??? in reply to John (C-IL), 01-11-2006 19:42:39

Now you are trying to bring the parking brake system into the discussion and complicate it.

The spring pressure is only used on the park brake system. In fact look under any truck and you will see most times only one axle has the double can spring system.

Air is still used to apply the brakes in the other side of the two can system.

The reason for using the newer spring system is because in the old system air was used to apply the parking brakes. When this air leaked off the brakes would release allowing the unit to roll.

Nothing like chasing a trailer around the yard trying to get it hooked up because the air had leaked off and the brakes had released.

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TRC

01-12-2006 05:59:41

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Re: Questions about AIR BRAKES ??? in reply to john in la, 01-11-2006 19:52:02

John, you're right on the money. And I've chased a couple of those trailers around when the brakes have not been set because the air leaked off or the brakes were out of adjustment.

Essentially we're talking about two separate systems that coexist on today's big rigs. One, the service brake system, uses air pressure to APPLY the brakes. The other, the parking brake system, uses air pressure to RELEASE the parking brake. Several people have gotten it right and several have gotten it at least partially wrong so far in the discussion.
Tim

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gorilla

01-11-2006 19:51:56

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Re: Questions about AIR BRAKES ??? in reply to John (C-IL), 01-11-2006 19:42:39

George Westinghouse invented the original air brake. They were first used on trains. One reason that they are better (safer) is that they are applied until you have enough air pressure to release them. So if you lose air pressure for whatever reason then the brakes "set". With hydraulic brakes if you lose fluid/pressure you lose your brakes.

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old

01-11-2006 20:06:32

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Re: Questions about AIR BRAKES ??? in reply to gorilla, 01-11-2006 19:51:56

Thats only true for the parking brake. I've lost air more then once and had the parking brake come on and thats the only time they come on unless you pull the parking brake knob. If you loose air preassure you have no control over the brakes and thats why you see those long skid marks on the road off and on, its where the driver/truck lost air preassure and the parking brakes popped on and believe me its not fun when it does that, been there done that.

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Zep

01-12-2006 09:23:06

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Re: Questions about AIR BRAKES ??? in reply to old, 01-11-2006 20:06:32

I always thought that those black marks came, when Snyder drivers run out of driving time, in their log book.

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old

01-12-2006 09:30:07

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Re: Questions about AIR BRAKES ??? in reply to Zep, 01-12-2006 09:23:06

Ya they never learned how to keep 2 books. But now days some of the new trucks will shut down after you drive them X number of miles in a 24 hour period unless you enter a pass word for the 2ond drive and that only works for team drivers.

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old

01-11-2006 19:23:33

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Re: Questions about AIR BRAKES ??? in reply to Bob, 01-11-2006 19:15:28

Being and over the road driver and haveing the brakes fade more then once because of heat your WRONG been there done it a number of times.

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the tractor vet

01-11-2006 19:36:37

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Re: Questions about AIR BRAKES ??? in reply to old, 01-11-2006 19:23:33

Yep BTDT and there is nothing like looking in the mirror and seeing all the drives smoken and all three on the trailer smoken and the Jake will not hold back and ya got two more miles of STEEP GRADE TO GO DOWN INTO TOWN and no runaway ramp to barrow and 150000 lbs setting on the deck helping you down. YEp they don't fade COUGH COUGH.

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Bob

01-11-2006 19:41:12

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Re: Questions about AIR BRAKES ??? in reply to the tractor vet, 01-11-2006 19:36:37

Vet,

I know you've got WAY more miles in a big rig than I have, and I respect you, and enjoy reading your tales of the road, but I was referring to brake fade from overheated hydraulic brake fluid, and you are referring to simply burning the air brakes right off the truck by severe use under KILLER conditions.

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Bob

01-11-2006 19:32:39

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Re: Questions about AIR BRAKES ??? in reply to old, 01-11-2006 19:23:33

Thanks for pointing that out! Would you rather have had hydraulic brakes? And, yes, I do have a commercial driver's license, with air brake endorsement.

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old

01-11-2006 19:53:07

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Re: Questions about AIR BRAKES ??? in reply to Bob, 01-11-2006 19:32:39

Not on a big rig I wouldn't. But I do know about brake fade on both types of brakes and so far knock on wood I have never had brake fade with hyd brakes because of hot fluid but have had it because of hot brake shoes. Iv'e had brakes on both type so hot that they where smokeing and believe me I don't like doing that on either type.

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