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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

Has John Deere ever had a first?

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Andrew from KY

12-28-2005 21:06:48




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Okay I don't want to start a war or anything but I was thinking about what major advances in farm machinery John Deere has been first at since they started building tractors. For example JD has only released a rotary style combine here in the past ten years, while New Holland and International have been making them since the 70's. I'm leaning toward a powershift transmission but I don't know if that came out in the 20 series in 1964 or the 10 series in 1961. If it was the 20 series then they'd be tied with Oliver, they released the 50 series tractors in '64 with the Over/Under option. And don't forget using two-cylinder tractors up until 1960, long after every other major manufacturer had released four cylinder and some sixes. Don't get me wrong I think that they've made a lot of good products over the years, but I'd like to know of something that they'd come out with first.

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dp in nd

12-31-2005 16:10:11




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 Re: Has John Deere ever had a first? in reply to Andrew from KY, 12-28-2005 21:06:48  
the JD 4020 power shift came from a D4 D6 Cat.



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Mark - IN.

12-30-2005 06:39:51




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 Re: Has John Deere ever had a first? in reply to Andrew from KY, 12-28-2005 21:06:48  
First? Well, speaking of firsts, I'd lost first and a few more gears in a 4520 sometime back and didn't have the time to split it myself, so took it to the Deere guy. He was the first guy to split that tractor, first guy to fix first (and some others), and first guy to bill me pretty good for fixing that tractor that runs great for the first time since I've had it.

So, seems to me that there's quite a few firsts in there, just for me alone. No complaints here. Best I can offer. Grin.

Mark

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edchainsaw

12-29-2005 18:26:00




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 Re: Has John Deere ever had a first? in reply to Andrew from KY, 12-28-2005 21:06:48  
Most every "invention" was brought to these companies.

Firsts--- well there are some firsts that well just should have never beens so why not be "BETTER" than frist.

and JD had a power shift in 1918 on the All wheel drive... and I am sure someone else might have had one.

The easy part of any product is the IDEA... making it work == work Right is the challenge.

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JoelS

12-30-2005 04:36:29




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 Re: Has John Deere ever had a first? in reply to edchainsaw, 12-29-2005 18:26:00  
I don't believe the 1918 tractor was a success or even offered as a production tractor. I think it was experimental or a pilot and who knows today who else built something like it before.



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Lucifer

12-30-2005 12:31:37




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 Re: Has John Deere ever had a first? in reply to JoelS, 12-30-2005 04:36:29  
Joel! Don't you know about the Dain? It never made it into mainstream production, but it was quite a success, from what I read. It was simply too expensive and too fancy for farmers of that time.



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JoelS

01-03-2006 04:21:22




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 Re: Has John Deere ever had a first? in reply to Lucifer, 12-30-2005 12:31:37  
If it is not put into production then it was not a success. Allis built a tractor in 1943 with a 5 speed full power shift. Too expensive to produce so not a success.



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PeteNY

12-29-2005 17:37:41




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 Re: Has John Deere ever had a first? in reply to Andrew from KY, 12-28-2005 21:06:48  
1st let me say that I love our Johns; A,B and 70 as well as all the other colors we have...but I will say that I believe the styled Johnnies were the FIRST and hopefully the LAST to require you to remove the steering rod, and the hood(including fuel tank) to replace the muffler!



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G/MAN - oh, and about the

12-29-2005 15:28:55




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 Re: Has John Deere ever had a first? in reply to Andrew from KY, 12-28-2005 21:06:48  
Deere was experimenting with many rotary prototype machines beginning in the 40s, and there is film evidence to back it up. So it wasn't like rotary technology was beyond Deere's capabilities until ten years ago. They simply never found an original idea (so that they weren't stepping on existing patents) that peformed up to their standards. The STS machines were not the first Deeres to use tine separation, either. Ever heard of a CTS combine?

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G/MAN

12-29-2005 15:25:02




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 Re: Has John Deere ever had a first? in reply to Andrew from KY, 12-28-2005 21:06:48  
The list of JD firsts would take several pages, especially if you factor in things they developed but never marketed. They had a powershiftable two-speed unit designed to go inside a two-cylinder belt-pulley in the 20s - decades before IH introduced the Torque-Amplifier, but it never saw production past the prototype stage. They had the first mechanical power-lift on the "GP". The first HYDRAULIC power-lift on the "A" in '34 - otherwise known as the Power-Lift. The first hydraulic system capable of operating a double-acting remote cylinder and the rockshaft - otherwise known as the Power-Trol. The first multi-barrel carburetion - the duplex carbs found on the first numbered two-bangers. The first (and only) rack-and-pinion wheel tread adjustment on the same tractors. First factory-engineered power-steering, not an add-on unit from and outside source. First closed-center hydraulic system on the New Gens. First power-assisted wet-disk brakes on the New Gens. First inboard-planetary final-drives - once again on the New Gens. Starting to wonder if you might get a little more than you bargained for on this question???

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JoelS

12-30-2005 08:10:30




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 Re: Has John Deere ever had a first? in reply to G/MAN, 12-29-2005 15:25:02  
You can't count experimentals as first. Records weren't saved from many companies that may show experimental activities. Allis developed fully operational 5 speed power shift tractors by 1943. Does that mean that Allis had the first full power shift? Not by my book. Rack-and-pinion I rank with roll-o-matic narrow front. No one wants it. Case had power steering 1953 wether or not it was "added on" or not doesn't matter.

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Christos

12-29-2005 21:36:20




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 Re: Has John Deere ever had a first? in reply to G/MAN, 12-29-2005 15:25:02  
Ok - here's a thought - about the Powr-trol system you forgot one tid-bit - you had to either use the rockshaft OR the cylinder. With the Ford-Ferguson System Tractors you could do both.

Anyways - someone and I think you hinted at it too - about the other companies that were merged into or bought out and now comprise Case-New Holland, and AGCO but here are some of the companies that Deere merged with.

Deere bought out and merged Dain, Waterloo, Van-Brunt amongst others into itself - so those tractors people pay a gazillion dollars for AND those grain drills are from technology that was accquired from others. You could argue that the only piece of technology that was created by deere that has survived (aside from modern inventions - post 1960) was its plow.

For the other companies - like J.I. Case, IH and Massey-Ferguson they were victims of a poor economy and corporate raiders in the 1970's and 80s. It is worthy to note - that unlike the demise of the Ford Brand of tractors (by the merger buy-out contract from New Holland) its the Case-IH name that still exists and on the AGCO side - all the historical components that creat that company today only one still exists with its own name on its tractor - Massey-Ferguson. Thats out of a host of famous brands like Allis-Chalmers, Oliver, the Minnies, Cockshutt, Massey-Harris and the Harry Ferguson Co.

Sorry for the rant - I'm bored and this is my humble two cents - pardon my while I rest my lauerels near the fire. ;)

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Glen in TX

12-29-2005 22:42:55




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 Re: Has John Deere ever had a first? in reply to Christos, 12-29-2005 21:36:20  
All those other companies merged with lots of others as well to get where they got. IHC emerged from lots of other companies too. You forgot to mention how John Deere once bought out the Holt Caterpillar combines to get in the combine business? lol. Now look at CAT back in it again. It goes around and around but those fat companies will be having to farm on their own someday soon as commodities won't support the cost of their machines much longer period. Wonder which company did the largest exports of products first to stay in business during the depression? JD exported to Russia then to stay in business. They all may have to figure out how to do that again someday.

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Andrew from KY

12-29-2005 17:20:14




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 Re: Has John Deere ever had a first? in reply to G/MAN, 12-29-2005 15:25:02  
More than I bargained for? Naw, I figured I'd get this much by lunchtime. That was why I asked the question in the first place. I guess to try and narrow it down only think of things that were in production. Otherwise I'm sure every company thought up all kinds of ideas only to get to teh prototype stage before beign shelved.



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nwb

12-29-2005 14:52:29




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 Re: Has John Deere ever had a first? in reply to Andrew from KY, 12-28-2005 21:06:48  
I have to chip in with the max-emerge planter units. These planter units changed corn planters. Also, I believe the 4620 was the first intercooled tractor.



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wgm

12-29-2005 18:10:51




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 Re: Has John Deere ever had a first? in reply to nwb, 12-29-2005 14:52:29  
JD bought max emerge planter technology and AC was intercooling back in the early 60's.



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Glen in TX

12-29-2005 13:38:01




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 Re: Has John Deere ever had a first? in reply to Andrew from KY, 12-28-2005 21:06:48  
IH and NH weren't the first to invent a rotary combine either. Hiram Moore made a wooden horse drawn combine eons before and others like Gleaner also made some rotaries and possibly some others in Europe as well. IH and NH rotarys did poor here in hard red winter wheat always leaving a trail of seed for a carpet of volunteer wheat. If you have seen one of the newer JD STS combines up close and operated one in the field you can see why they waited to market a more successful rotary design.

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JKT

12-29-2005 17:49:21




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 Re: Has John Deere ever had a first? in reply to Glen in TX, 12-29-2005 13:38:01  
Then why did Deere just dump the STS rotor after a few years and go with the Axial Flow, oh I mean Bullet Rotor.



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Glen in TX

12-29-2005 22:48:05




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 Re: Has John Deere ever had a first? in reply to JKT, 12-29-2005 17:49:21  
To improve and stay in business I suppose? Isn't that how they stay? There were several JD machines with other covers on them out there with bullet rotors in them before the ads came out. So why did CAT have to get back in the combine business? JD already bought them out once with the Holt Caterpillar combine buy way back.



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Glen in TX

12-29-2005 13:14:04




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 Re: Has John Deere ever had a first? in reply to Andrew from KY, 12-28-2005 21:06:48  
Like someone posted below. John Deere was one of the leaders in ergonomics and operator comfort beginning with the 30 series 2 cylinders and more with the New Generation 10 series and personal posture seat and operator station. Then John Deere left the competition reeling to catch up when the Generation II tractors came out in 1972 with Sound Body and Sound Guard cabs and more operator comfort in other machines and combines as well. JD may not have had the first corn header to harvest the whole corn plant but they did lay claim to the first successfully "marketed" corn header attachment on a self propelled combine with the model 45 and No. 10 corn head in 53 and 54. Gleaner had a corn head then right after but on drag type combine and then later a self propelled. JD made some of the first successfully marketed 3 point "quick hitches" in the 60s that others later copied. JD has stayed successful while the others are always reeling to stay and merging constantly.

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SMA in NE

12-29-2005 10:39:30




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 Re: Has John Deere ever had a first? in reply to Andrew from KY, 12-28-2005 21:06:48  
Ford had their power shift, the "selecto-speed" in 1958. The problem was they rushed it into production before they had all the problems solved. John Deere's came out 6 years later but it was a trouble free unit compared to the Ford. Oliver's over/under seems to be little more than a TA with one extra speed, alot different than a full power shift.



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1 Dollar

12-29-2005 10:34:17




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 Re: Has John Deere ever had a first? in reply to Andrew from KY, 12-28-2005 21:06:48  
Well when the A came out in 1934 I think it was the first tractor with adjustable rear wheel spacing and was also the first tractor with a one piece transmission case.



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Jonathan Brown

12-29-2005 11:37:21




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 Re: Has John Deere ever had a first? in reply to 1 Dollar, 12-29-2005 10:34:17  
I thought the farmall f-12 was the first tractor with axles the you could slide the rims on?



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Leroy

12-29-2005 15:46:10




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 Re: Has John Deere ever had a first? in reply to Jonathan Brown, 12-29-2005 11:37:21  
The F 12 in either 32 or 33



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jdemarisj

12-29-2005 06:42:33




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 Re: Has John Deere ever had a first? in reply to Andrew from KY, 12-28-2005 21:06:48  
I can think of a few things I saw first on Deere equipment - but I don't know for sure if Deere actually was the originator. The automatic fuel cut-off valve that operates on engine oil pressure as used in the older two-cylinder tractors. I've only seen it on Deeres. Another "innovation" was the 24-12neg-12pos electrical system - 24 volt starting - 12 volts neg ground for half the tractor and 24 volt pos ground for the other half tractor system that Deere used in the 3010s, 3020s, 4020s, etc. When I was sent to Deere service school to learn about those G*ddam systems, Deere told us they had it custom designed just for them by AC Delco. One piece unitized engine sleeve deck as used in the 1010-2010 series and a few power units and combines that started around 1960. Closed center, 2200 PSI standy hydraulic system - I saw it first in Deere tractors i.e. the 2510, 3010, 4010, etc. Maybe they copied it from somewhere else?

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Leroy

12-29-2005 05:40:11




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 Re: Has John Deere ever had a first? in reply to Andrew from KY, 12-28-2005 21:06:48  
I always said they were Johnney come lately and if you talk about just types of machinery and not specifics in a certain type you will se that is tru on a lot of machinery, the first Deere corn harvester was a corn binder and to get it they hired away from McCormic the person that brought the McCormic binder to production and improved it when they brought it out long after McCormic had a corn picker and Wroper-Wright was first to have a dial setting for combine platform 20 years ahead of Deere, and yes, most of my stuf is Deere but there are others that made better models of different items and we would pick the make that we thought was better

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Mike M

12-29-2005 04:49:50




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 Re: Has John Deere ever had a first? in reply to Andrew from KY, 12-28-2005 21:06:48  
Being first with something doesn't make it the best. Being the biggest company doesn't mean you have the "best" products either. Probabaly better business to let someone else spend all the time and money inventing something,then buy them out (or copy)and then change it somemore hopefully improving it. Microsoft may be a real good example of this. The biggest --Yes! The best--Debateable. Did they invent the first computer--Heck No ! Smart businessman -- For Sure !

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DJM75

12-29-2005 02:40:32




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 Re: Has John Deere ever had a first? in reply to Andrew from KY, 12-28-2005 21:06:48  
I don"t know about all that but oliver had more firsts then anyone it"s just they never patented their ideas and didn"t worry about it and went on to make new ideas and products and had more firsts your on the wrong color green for this subject.



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Silver Pig

12-29-2005 02:03:50




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 Re: Has John Deere ever had a first? in reply to Andrew from KY, 12-28-2005 21:06:48  
Roll-Gard, which they gave to the industry to promote safety, Fully enclosed PTO driveline shielding, which they gave to the industry to promote safety, 1000 RPM PTO, I believe the Power Lift starting with the GP, I believe Power Beyond hydraulic capability, fully hydrostatic power steering.



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Eldon (WA)

12-29-2005 08:31:32




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 Re: Has John Deere ever had a first? in reply to Silver Pig, 12-29-2005 02:03:50  
Allis Chalmers designed the first rolling pto shield that is now the industry standard.



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Lavoy

12-29-2005 12:01:43




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 Re: Has John Deere ever had a first? in reply to Eldon (WA), 12-29-2005 08:31:32  
I think Silver Pig is referring to the knckle area. Deere developed a completely shielded u-joint as he said, and did give it to the industry. I remember it's introduction many years ago.
Lavoy



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Burnie

12-29-2005 00:08:13




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 Re: Has John Deere ever had a first? in reply to Andrew from KY, 12-28-2005 21:06:48  
On cotton pickers, the first inline head and first adjustable row space head. Also first factory fitted GPS guidance.



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Jay (ND)

12-29-2005 07:45:28




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 Re: Has John Deere ever had a first? in reply to Burnie, 12-29-2005 00:08:13  
Factory fitted for sure - but not even close to the first GPS for tractors - and still not even close to as affordable as the others and no more accurate or reliable.



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msb

12-28-2005 22:30:03




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 Re: Has John Deere ever had a first? in reply to Andrew from KY, 12-28-2005 21:06:48  
There have been several firsts.Its late so I'll only name a couple.Cantilevered stalk rolls on corn heads and the best rotary hoe money can still buy if you still use one.I don't You got me started.Closed center hydraulics.Crankcase ventilator pump,Dial a Matic header control,True Vee openers on planters.Fertilizer coulters with gauge wheels.That was my original idea that Deere used.The slice and smash 750 No Till drill.Finger pick up corn unit.I am going to bed now.

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Christos

12-28-2005 22:22:54




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 Re: Has John Deere ever had a first? in reply to Andrew from KY, 12-28-2005 21:06:48  
I would think that they were one of the few manufactures to identify ergonomics as a factor in designing farm equipment. If what the Oct 05 issue of Green Magazine was correct in its judgement, the 30 series of the Johnny Poppers took into consideration human posture and comfort with the improved seating and the movable steering wheels as well as applying steps to get up onto the tractor.

Most of the tractors of the day had a pan seat made out of steel with no cushioning on it. (if it hurts the buns, farming is no fun! ;))

Christos

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02

12-28-2005 21:33:16




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 Re: Has John Deere ever had a first? in reply to Andrew from KY, 12-28-2005 21:06:48  
Rollomatic,roll-over protection,upholstered seat,I'm sure there's lots more.



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c hess

12-29-2005 10:10:17




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 Re: Has John Deere ever had a first? in reply to 02, 12-28-2005 21:33:16  
70 series case had first tested roll over cab with pop out glass an leak proof batteries. Also chalange anyone to cross plow furrows with i hand on steering wheel against case dc even with roll amatic



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Eldon (WA)

12-29-2005 08:33:39




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 Re: Has John Deere ever had a first? in reply to 02, 12-28-2005 21:33:16  
The '38 Allis B had an upholstered seat..... our '47 JD B didn't!



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RustyFarmall

12-29-2005 05:46:48




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 Re: Has John Deere ever had a first? in reply to 02, 12-28-2005 21:33:16  
The roll-a-matic was invented by an independent entrepenuer. This man approached IH first, IH installed and tested the device and determined that it did not improve the handling and ride of the tractor to any great extent (if at all), so they declined the offer.



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JMS/MN

12-28-2005 21:31:11




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 Re: Has John Deere ever had a first? in reply to Andrew from KY, 12-28-2005 21:06:48  
JD came with the Power Shift transmission with the 20 series, a copycat of the Ford Select-O-Speed, but they made it work, and it worked very well- still does! Rather comical to read their ads of the late 60s, talking about 'exclusive' powershift rear wheels- which Allis-Chalmers came out with in 1948!!!!! Oliver's over/under cannot be compared to the JD transmissions- others had different ideas about multiple speeds, TA, Ampli-Torque, Hi-Lo, etc. Everone had different ways to get around another's patented ideas.

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JMS/MN

12-29-2005 09:46:33




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 Re: Has John Deere ever had a first? in reply to JMS/MN, 12-28-2005 21:31:11  
Oops! Their powershift wheel ads were from the late 50s, with the two cylinder tractors, not the 10/20 series.



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Andrew from KY

12-28-2005 21:35:29




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 Re: Has John Deere ever had a first? in reply to JMS/MN, 12-28-2005 21:31:11  
I was thinking that the Over/Under was the first (besides JD) that was more than two speeds. What about their Dial-a-Matic flex heads like the 216 or 218 models, had anyone come out with a better head before then? Another thing I thought of was the plateless planter, was that IH or Deere?



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