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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

OT: Oversized Oil Filter on Cars

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Vinnie

10-14-2005 04:07:50




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This may be a little OT, but its close and I would like to hear some feedback from folks in the know.

My V6 car takes a small oil filter, not much bigger than the one for my 20 hp mower. Is there anything wrong with using a larger one, with the exact same size thread, number of holes, seal etc? My thoughts are that the larger filter will provide a larger filter media, less restriction to oil flow and allow a few more ounces of oil in the system.

I ran a '91 GM Quad 4 for 225k miles using the larger filter before I traded, still changed oil and filter every 3K.

-Vinnie

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deanop

10-14-2005 09:47:41




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 Re: OT: Oversized Oil Filter on Cars in reply to Vinnie, 10-14-2005 04:07:50  
i used the same filter on my 92 lesabre/90 gmc sierra....the 92 was a 3800 the truck was 5.7...a guy at napa said there was no problem...i liked to do that just for the convenience..did it for 5 years or so...



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Dave (GA)

10-14-2005 07:23:26




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 Re: OT: Oversized Oil Filter on Cars in reply to Vinnie, 10-14-2005 04:07:50  
A larger oil filter does not necessarily have more filter media. Due to EPA etc the smaller filters have the same filter(media) of the large one but does not have the residual oil volume of the large one. Dealers in some states have to deal with this when they dispose of oil filters. I have seen this on a number of engines both on road and off road that my company produces



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Nolan

10-14-2005 07:15:01




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 Re: OT: Oversized Oil Filter on Cars in reply to Vinnie, 10-14-2005 04:07:50  
Spend a little time with the Baldwin filter catalog and you'll be able to figure out which filters will fit your vehicle, with the proper or acceptable valving and such. It's not hard to find at least a dozen alternatives. The catalog is on the web btw.

There is a mild downside to larger filters. They take longer to fill up, and oil pressure takes longer to build up as a result. This is mostly a problem on the initial fire up after changing the filter. Some fret over it, some don't. I haven't seem solid evidence of a problem with this myself.

I equally don't see a problem with running a small filter. If your engine is shedding metal particals so fast the filter blinds from them because of its size, you've got far more serious issues to deal with than a small filter.

One nice thing you can do with the catalog is look up all your vehicles and see if perhaps you can switch to a standard filter. I've four different vehicles here at home, all calling for different filters. By researching, I was able to go with just one single filter on all the vehicles, which incidentally wasn't specified for any of them.

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TomTX

10-14-2005 05:53:27




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 Re: OT: Oversized Oil Filter on Cars in reply to Vinnie, 10-14-2005 04:07:50  
As others have told you, it is usaully a bad idea. It is just like a lot of people just put any automotive filter that will fit right and seal right on their tractor. The engine manufacturer has specific designs for the oil filter, which include: Lbs/sq. in. pressure relief valve for bypass protection; and flow rate.



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BobMo

10-14-2005 05:45:33




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 Re: OT: Oversized Oil Filter on Cars in reply to Vinnie, 10-14-2005 04:07:50  
Use the filter that was designed for the vehicle. I'm sure if it would preform better, last longer, or actually required it, it would be on there. Filters larger than recommended may cause unwanted pressure drop across the filter which may promote wear not reduce it.
Your line of thinking goes right along with "the heavyer the oil the better" and its incorrect. Theres a reason the manufacture makes recommendations. Good luck

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txgrn

10-14-2005 06:17:35




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 Re: OT: Oversized Oil Filter on Cars in reply to BobMo, 10-14-2005 05:45:33  
Surface area of the larger filter is larger, hence with a given flow of oil at a given viscosity, there are more holes for it to flow through and hence less resistance.

A smaller filter can/will clog faster (because of fewer holes...pores) which will reduce the available (remaining unclogged) holes and increase the pressure required to find a hole for the oil to flow through and hence increase pressure drop.

Mark

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Mark - IN.

10-14-2005 21:27:55




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 Re: OT: Oversized Oil Filter on Cars in reply to txgrn, 10-14-2005 06:17:35  
I think Mark, that you are correct. And for those whom are limited by space, can relocate with a remote. For their V8s starting in '68 when went from a changable canister cartridge to a spin on, GM typically used one quart filters. Where room was limited, they used a 1/2 quart. Chrysler did the same. Probably Ford too. I forget the model number GM used in their trucks (not passenger trucks), but was a 2 quart filter. I loved BB Chevys and used the 2 quarts with Moroso remotes mounted to the firewalls or frames. Unlike 2.5 ton trucks, wasn't the ground clearance to spin on a 2 quart on a car.

I agree with you. Oil filter should be as unrestrictive as possible. Lots of face (filtering area).

I barely remember what it was like to drive one of those Novas, Camaros, or Chevelles. I remember was fun for the eyeballs to get pushed back into their sockets with every gear, but not how much fun anymore. Now I putt putt around on tractors. What happened to me?

Mark

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txgrn

10-16-2005 15:31:53




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 Re: OT: Oversized Oil Filter on Cars in reply to Mark - IN., 10-14-2005 21:27:55  
Like the rest of us you aged. Grin.

Mark



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Jon Hagen

10-14-2005 11:25:53




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 Re: OT: Oversized Oil Filter on Cars in reply to txgrn, 10-14-2005 06:17:35  
I agree,the larger filter IF it has more filter media is better for your engine. What many don't realize that the filter mesh micron size is so tight that it will filter all the engines needs only when the oil is hot and thin. When you start an engine with cold thick oil in the system,the filter cannot possibly flow the full volume needed by the engine,so the filter bypass valve opens allowing mostly unfiltered oil to circulate through the engine. As the oil warms and thins,more and more oil flows through the filter untill the bypass valve finally sees little enough pressure drop to close completly.

Consider that for the first 5 min or so your engine is running on mostly unfiltered oil. The more restrictive(smaller)the filter is, the worse the problem becomes.

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txgrn

10-16-2005 15:30:08




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 Re: OT: Oversized Oil Filter on Cars in reply to Jon Hagen, 10-14-2005 11:25:53  
Where did you acquire that pack of nonsense? The bypass valve is for a clogged filter cause the owner was too lazy or stupid to change it and the oil before it turned to grease.

Mark



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Allan in NE

10-14-2005 05:40:21




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 Re: OT: Oversized Oil Filter on Cars in reply to Vinnie, 10-14-2005 04:07:50  
Mornin' Vinnie,

One time I dropped an Olds Diesel in my old Chevy 4X4 and had to go the other direction (to a smaller filter) because the front drive shaft interfered with the oil filter if I hit a large 'bump'.

Ya gotta watch the flow direction of the filter.

Just because the size and threads are the same doesn't mean that the "flow direction" is the same. Some filters have a by-pass check valve in 'em too and running the filter backwards just makes it inert.

Allan

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txgrn

10-14-2005 05:55:35




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 Re: OT: Oversized Oil Filter on Cars in reply to Allan in NE, 10-14-2005 05:40:21  
Hows the better half? Hope better. She ready to get back on that horse? Ha. Probably already sold him.

On the bypass valve, for most folks it's useless..... .most folks that change their oil that is. But I had a neighbor with a "professional" grown daughter, unmarried, that knew only to add gas and drive.....should have seen the mess she left behind...the oil had turned to grease. Glad she wasn't my daughter; I'd have turned her across my knee....don't care if she was grown. Grin

Mark

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dhermesc

10-14-2005 05:32:49




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 Re: OT: Oversized Oil Filter on Cars in reply to Vinnie, 10-14-2005 04:07:50  
Nothing wrong with using an oversized filter, just make sure you have clearance. Those little engines move around quite a bit and you don't want to wear a hole in the filter.



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txgrn

10-14-2005 05:17:36




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 Re: OT: Oversized Oil Filter on Cars in reply to Vinnie, 10-14-2005 04:07:50  
Bigger the better for me. Never knew why GM used those tiny filters.....or just 4 qts of oil on small block v8's. Maybe they wear out faster that way.

Mark



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BobMo

10-14-2005 05:55:48




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 Re: OT: Oversized Oil Filter on Cars in reply to txgrn, 10-14-2005 05:17:36  
Your wrong. Thats the way they are designed and engines are better than they have ever been..



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txgrn

10-14-2005 06:14:21




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 Re: OT: Oversized Oil Filter on Cars in reply to BobMo, 10-14-2005 05:55:48  
Well Bob, if we take the function to the limit, i.e. size reduction, size goes to zero, hence no filter. Whereas taking it to the other limit is a filter that is too large to be practical, but the engine would (should) last indefinitely, if crud in the lubricant was the determining factor.

I think it has more to do with interference than functionality. The engine has to fit a certain envelope and filters are usually testing that envelope.....and then there are location problems for the engine designer and chassis folks.

Mark

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wayne2

10-14-2005 05:28:42




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 Re: OT: Oversized Oil Filter on Cars in reply to txgrn, 10-14-2005 05:17:36  
Yep,can't make money not selling anything!!!



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txgrn

10-14-2005 05:36:40




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 Re: OT: Oversized Oil Filter on Cars in reply to wayne2, 10-14-2005 05:28:42  
Boy that was a quickie.

That's one reason I've moved to Dodge. Still have my 98 with only 2 little problems the whole time and just bought an '05 1500. Boy have they improved upon a great truck. If you're in the market for one, do yourself a favor and at least look at the Dodge. I got the 4.7 v8 and it has a little computer that tells your mileage. Couple of days ago I was putting along at around 40 to 60 mph and caught it at 19.9 mpg with only 600 miles on the vehicle. Last tank of gas was 17.1 overall. And the little sucker is peppy. Real nice. 5 speed auto.

Mark

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evilboweviel

10-14-2005 06:40:10




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 Re: OT: Oversized Oil Filter on Cars in reply to txgrn, 10-14-2005 05:36:40  
I have a 2004 Dodge with the 4.7 and run a large filter. Fram PH1?? have to look again. it hits the little drain trough when installing however will go on ok. Sure is a nice truck. I got the basic truck 8' bed regular cab v8 auto, ac. So do not have the fancy computer read out however get 16 consistly with it. Pulls a trailer nicely and as long as you keep the speed to legal limits still does good on gas. The remote start sure is handy in the winter.
Ron

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MPK

10-14-2005 07:32:53




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 Re: OT: Oversized Oil Filter on Cars in reply to evilboweviel, 10-14-2005 06:40:10  
I remember back when they started making small filters they said they had just as much filter area squeezed into the small filter as the big one. It seems like they would cut one open and stretch out the paper to show it and compare it to an old big one.



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txgrn

10-14-2005 16:01:16




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 Re: OT: Oversized Oil Filter on Cars in reply to MPK, 10-14-2005 07:32:53  
Somebody's obviously blowing smoke.

Mark



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bradk

10-14-2005 19:39:07




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 Re: OT: Oversized Oil Filter on Cars in reply to txgrn, 10-14-2005 16:01:16  
BEWARE:Bigger filters are not better!!General Motors had a bulletin not too many years ago that changed use from a long to short filters in their 2.8(w) & 3.1(t) engines. The reasoning was the longer filter caused harmonic vibration from the engine to amplify through the longer filter & cause stress fractures.Engines that have crank counter-weight or balance-shafts like the GM3800 not a big deal.But a tractor,combine or truck engine????? ~brad

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txgrn

10-16-2005 15:27:34




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 Re: OT: Oversized Oil Filter on Cars in reply to bradk, 10-14-2005 19:39:07  
Get serious. Harmonic vibrations from something as light as a filter with the dia/height ratio. You're blowing smoke sucker. Get off the web.

Mark



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bradk

10-16-2005 18:01:11




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 Re: OT: Oversized Oil Filter on Cars in reply to txgrn, 10-16-2005 15:27:34  
If you don't like the factual info. I gave you , take it up w/"THE GENERAL" I mean really,what would one of the largest auto makers know about designing a car!! And what would a 11 year GM tech , and a 14 year ASE master auto tech. know about engines & filtration!!! Maybe you & your smart mouth should get off the web.~brad



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