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Trailer Towing Question - tires (or tyres)

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Rick Weaver

08-23-2005 10:06:32




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Hi,

I would like some advice. I towed a tractor to a show on a new trailer for the first time a couple of weeks ago. I know for a fact that the trailer was front-heavy as recommended. I have anti-sway bar, which kept the trailer from swaying. However, after one stop it came off, and I had problems with the trailer swaying side to side.

The question is:

The guy had put new radial light truck tires on it, not bias-ply trailer tires. I ran the tires at the highest rated pressure listed on the tire.

Do I need to put trailer tires on the trailer to eliminate the sway? Since the trailer was properly loaded, the weight distribution wasn't the problem.

My supposition is that the softer radial LT tires encouraged the oscillation. Can anyone tell me for sure?

Thanks
Rick

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Nolan

08-24-2005 05:03:03




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 Re: Trailer Towing Question - tires (or tyres) in reply to Rick Weaver, 08-23-2005 10:06:32  
I've done quite a bit of...questionable towing over the years. Home made hitches, home made trailers, etc. Some things I've observed about swaying and such:

Tongue weight is the most overblown claim out there. In playing with trailers that could have their loads easily moved around, I've found tongue weight all by itself has almost zero effect on trailer stability.

Hitch flex really makes for a wiggly trailer. Lots of hitches flex side to side quite a bit more than you expect. It doesn't take much. If you get it going in time with the trailer harmonics, you can get some really nice swaying going. It'll tend to be fast and rather violent.

Short trailers sway a whole lot more than long trailers. They start at a lower vehicle speed, and they sway more violently. The longer the trailer, the more stable it is.

Tail weight makes life interesting. This is weight out behind the axle of the trailer. Do your best to reduce it. It's a seperate issue from centering the weight around the axle btw. A long load well balanced around the axle will still sway and be exciting because of the pendulum effect of the weight that's extended behind the axle.

Tires make a huge difference, especially on the tow vehicle. Everyone pays attention to the trailer tires, but ignores the tow vehicles tires. Radials are very prone to side wiggle (just shove the side of your Jeep and observe). Higher air pressure helps, but stiffer sidewalls help a lot. Many tow vehicles have inadequate tires for the job.

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Don Wadge

08-24-2005 07:20:36




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 Re: Trailer Towing Question - tires (or tyres) in reply to Nolan, 08-24-2005 05:03:03  
Nolan, your comments are very relevant. I like what you said about tongue weight being the most overblown issue. Tongue weight is somewhat a result of where you have to have your load placed in order to not have any appreciable amouint of weight behind your rear trailer axle. If tongue weight is too heavy I don't think it is too much of a control issue unless it makes you light on the front end, but it will make it a harder as in heavier load to pull and if the rear end of your tow vehicle is not stable for what ever reason you will be hearding the vehicle down the road. Not too many of the posts took issue with the tow vehicle rear tires which is probably the root of his problem. Same thing happens when your rear tires are underinflated with no trailer behind and most of us have had that experience. They are either underinflated for the job or not a stable (stiff) enough side wall. I think what happened here is that when he had his load far enough forward for a good tow the rear of the tow vehicle wiggled and when he moved the load back to reduce tongue weight suitable to the tow vehicle (tires) the load was too far back for good trailer performance. This too is where a longer trailer helps because you can load it so that you do not have any appreciable load behind your rear axle yet because of the length of the trailer this does not result in an appreciable gain in tongue weight. In my experience you need to load the hitch with a sufficient amount of weight in order to give adequate weight to the tow vehicle for control purposes but really the trailer should run itself. In other words you should not expect to stop the trailer with your tow vehicle. The trailer brakes should stop the trailer and load and the tow vehicle provides the pull and the directional control. Much of this is something everyone has to learn for themselves it seems. I've had several tailers from short to long. I've used passenger tires on the trailer and I've used trailer tires on the trailer. As for control the tires on the trailer are of far lesser importance than those on the rear of the tow vehicle. I did not have any control problems using passenger tires on the trailer. For the past few years I have a 24' triple axle bumper hitch trailer. If I'm hauling a tractor I usually get the best performance with the rear axle of the tractor sitting right between my rear 2 trailer axles.

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Don L C

08-23-2005 20:35:25




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 Re: Trailer Towing Question - tires (or tyres) in reply to Rick Weaver, 08-23-2005 10:06:32  
The cause of traiter sway is not enough tounge weight.....15%of the total weight of tractor and trailer , should be resting on the hitch....



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Kevin Bismark

08-23-2005 19:24:13




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 Re: Trailer Towing Question - tires (or tyres) in reply to Rick Weaver, 08-23-2005 10:06:32  
What are you pulling this rig with anyway, thinking you have a little too much trailer behind you, tried that once, then got a really big truck and really big trailer to get rid of the problem, even some of the smaller trucks won't handle the listed GVW very well, but the manual say's you can pull that, did this really come off the hitch, or did you just loose control for a bit?. Reminds me when I saw a ford Escort with 12 bags of cement in the back seat, 10 cases of beer, about 15 sheets of 3/4 plywood on the roof with at least 2 feet of 2/6's stacked on top of that all tied down to the roof of the car with bungee cords, they were on the way back to the reservation, and didn't make it out of the Menards parking lot, rear tires were flat when I saw it, wished I had a camera with, I couldn't believe what I saw, with the 2 big guy's that were standing next to the car I think it's safe to say they were a little over the GVW of the little Escort, was something to see though..
Kevin
me that time..

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T_Bone

08-23-2005 16:40:28




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 Re: Trailer Towing Question - tires (or tyres) in reply to Rick Weaver, 08-23-2005 10:06:32  
Hi Rick,

From the additional info you gave, it appears to me you introduced trailer sway by to light of tongue weight(TW), the number one cause of sway.

If the sum total of the tire weight ratings exceeds your trailer GVW, then any type of tire can be used on the trailer without problems.

The same also apply's to your tow vehicle(TV) tires. Since 95% of the added trailer weight is on the rear axle then rear tires gross weight rating is more critical on your TV tires as it must carry the TV weight as well as TW of the trailer. It's really easy to exceed this rating on the TV.

I awlays use a rule of thumb for loading TW. With the empty trailer on the hitch ball/pin, move the trailer load weight forward until the rear bumper of the TV sinks 2". This will be the correct TW 99% of the time for most TV's.

Make sure your hitching is also rated for the GVW and the TW of the receiver is adaquote. Small TV's usually don't have a very heavy rated hitching.

T_Bone

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Nebraska Cowman

08-23-2005 16:24:00




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 Re: Trailer Towing Question - tires (or tyres) in reply to Rick Weaver, 08-23-2005 10:06:32  
One more thought rick, You said you had the tires inflated to spec. What was that? I'd think 50 - 60 pounds min would be inline for that load. Maybe your tires are too light? Also do you have enough air in your jeep tires? It does make a difference.



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rick weaver

08-23-2005 14:45:44




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 Re: Trailer Towing Question - tires (or tyres) in reply to Rick Weaver, 08-23-2005 10:06:32  
Are you guys saying that a 4000 lb curb weight tow vehicle (4500 with passengers, nearly 5000 with cargo) won't pull a 5000 lb trailer with brakes?



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paul

08-23-2005 20:20:46




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 Re: Trailer Towing Question - tires (or tyres) in reply to rick weaver, 08-23-2005 14:45:44  
Have to look at the whole picture.

A Jeep is a short wheelbase. That is the biggest problem of your towing vehicle swaying.

Trying to correct that problem, you made the hich weight of the trailer too light, and so the trailer swayed.

Without anti-sway or leveling hitch, your combination is probably overloaded at the numbers you say in this message.

The tires should not be the problem for you, tho not sure what they really are rated for, need to find the load letter code.....

But, I would not think the trailer tires are the problem.

--->Paul

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Nebraska Cowman

08-23-2005 16:13:30




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 Re: Trailer Towing Question - tires (or tyres) in reply to rick weaver, 08-23-2005 14:45:44  
NO, you are the one that said you were having trouble.



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Nebraska Cowman

08-23-2005 14:16:26




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 Re: Trailer Towing Question - tires (or tyres) in reply to Rick Weaver, 08-23-2005 10:06:32  
After reading all the posts and your reply, I don't think changing tires will help you. I'd get a real truck. Please don't take my comment wrong. I pulled a boat and other trailers for several years with a Thunderbird. Had a load of cows on one day and the hitch was nearly draging the ground, (but I was not going very far) Ya do what ya hafta do.



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dab

08-23-2005 11:52:42




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 Re: Trailer Towing Question - tires (or tyres) in reply to Rick Weaver, 08-23-2005 10:06:32  
I was just wondering if you thought of another thing. Just cuz it is rated to pull a load doesn't mean it will do a good job at it. Tire width has as much to do with it as tire size. The rating on the tire refers to the number of plies it has. But all this set aside, once you get it all dialed in. And you got your hitch and everything is going smooth so you go cruising' down the road at 55 plus and need to stop fast, that is were you are not going to like that little jeep getting pushed by that big tractor, especially if it is wet. If you are going to serious about tractors I would think seriously about a truck. Just my two cents.

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Don Wadge

08-23-2005 11:44:48




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 Re: Trailer Towing Question - tires (or tyres) in reply to Rick Weaver, 08-23-2005 10:06:32  
Rick, 450 lbs. is not a lot of weight on the hitch. If that caused control problems on your Grand Cherokee I would look more to tire stability on your Cherokee than to the trailer. If your tow vehicle tires (particularly rear) are underinflated or if they just aren't up to it you will have control problems driving straight down the highway. If your rear tires give sideways during the normal driving correction one does going straight down the highway then your vehicle is over-correcting and you make another correction which is further compounded. The result is a very bad drive home and a dangerous one too if its bad enough. I think you should look to the tires on your Cherokee for the problem. Either that or it's the Cherokee suspension. If as one other post said the Cherokee is rated for 5,000lbs. you should be good if you get enough tire. Also the Cherokee is probably rated for 5,000 with a weight distribution hitch.
I've pulled several different bumper hitch trailers and my experience is that it is better to have a little too much weight on your hitch than not enough and regardless of how much weight you have on your hitch, if you do not have enough of the weight ahead of your axles the tail will wag the dog. Just a comment on how trailers are built. I'll get disagreement on this, but, I think a lot of trailers are built with the axles too far forward.

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acmfmh

08-23-2005 11:27:29




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 Re: Trailer Towing Question - tires (or tyres) in reply to Rick Weaver, 08-23-2005 10:06:32  
Rick,

There have been lots of good comments and here is my 2 cents.

Get the weight distributing hitch. Get a good set of sway bars. Two bars. One for each side. Make sure they are tight.

Also, if the trailer has one axle, a 3500lbs tractor is pushing the limits of how much the jeep is going to handle.

If none of this helps I would suggest a bigger, esp. longer vehicle.



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Nebraska Cowman

08-23-2005 10:21:02




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 Re: Trailer Towing Question - tires (or tyres) in reply to Rick Weaver, 08-23-2005 10:06:32  
Hummm, I don't have a clue but i don't think your trailer should sway. How light of a pickup are you using? What percent of total weight did you have at the hitch?



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Wild Bill

08-23-2005 10:19:25




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 Re: Trailer Towing Question - tires (or tyres) in reply to Rick Weaver, 08-23-2005 10:06:32  
Rick, it may be that the trailer was too front heavy. That will also cause a sway. How big of a trailer, and how big of a tractor?



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Jim.UT

08-23-2005 10:10:49




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 Re: Trailer Towing Question - tires (or tyres) in reply to Rick Weaver, 08-23-2005 10:06:32  
I have radial tires on my trailer and I don't have any problems. But, they are trailer radials, size ST225/75R15. I don't know enough about tire design to say, but I assume there's something specific in the way trailer tires are constructed, otherwise why would they have the specific "ST" trailer designation (as opposed to "LT" for light truck or "P" for passenger)?



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Tim...Ok

08-23-2005 10:24:05




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 Re: Trailer Towing Question - tires (or tyres) in reply to Jim.UT, 08-23-2005 10:10:49  
Too much weight on the front will cause that also.. I"ve run the P and LT tires on all my trailers forever and never had a problem unless I had too much weight in the wrong place.. Worst pull I ever made was with a bridgeport mill (2300 lb?) loaded in the front of my 20" trailer..horrible drive home @40 mph.. maybe not the technical answer your looking for,but my experience..

Tim



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Rick Weaver

08-23-2005 10:43:09




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 Re: Trailer Towing Question - tires (or tyres) in reply to Tim...Ok, 08-23-2005 10:24:05  
I used a bathroom scale and lever to measure the tongue weight. This is a Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited, pulling 3500 lb tractor on probably a 1000 lb trailer.

I had 450 lb tongue weight initially. Caused sway on the front of the Jeep. Could tell it was front-light from how it drove. Scary. Moved the tractor backward to where it was at about 350 lb, the Jeep drove much better. This is still less than the 10% tongue weight I've heard is recommended.

Does this help?

PS am gonna be getting a weight distribution hitch (or whatever you call that thing).

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big jt

08-23-2005 23:17:22




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 Re: Trailer Towing Question - tires (or tyres) in reply to Rick Weaver, 08-23-2005 10:43:09  
I hate to flame you but a 3500lb tractor on a 1000lb trailer is a LOT more scary than I would want to meet on the road. Just interested what did you use to tie the tractor down? Remember the Working Load Limit on tie downs needs to be 1.5 times the weight of cargo in all directions. WLL is usually about a fourth of the breaking strength.

Other posts are right. If you were have problems with tow vehicle control you need less tongue weight. Negative tongue weight will cause the trailer to sway and with the set up you describe will only scare the #### out of you If you are lucky.

jt

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Rod in Smiths Falls, ON,

08-23-2005 18:08:48




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 Re: Trailer Towing Question - tires (or tyres) in reply to Rick Weaver, 08-23-2005 10:43:09  
A bathroom scale that goes to 450lbs? That's scarier than a Jeep weaving down the highway.



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VADAVE

08-23-2005 17:14:09




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 Re: Trailer Towing Question - tires (or tyres) in reply to Rick Weaver, 08-23-2005 10:43:09  
Wait a minute--The FRONT of the toe vehicle swayed? That is NOT trailer sway!!
What you have is too small a vehicle. Read the owner's manual, I'll bet it says the jeep will tow a 5000 lb trailer WHEN PROPERLY EQUIPPED. What that means is you must get a weight distributing hitch. After that it will tow OK.
By the way 450 lb tongue weight is about right for a 4500 lb trailer. I am a little surprised 450 lb on the bumper caused the Jeep front end to come up.

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John (MO)

08-23-2005 11:23:21




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 Re: Trailer Towing Question - tires (or tyres) in reply to Rick Weaver, 08-23-2005 10:43:09  
I think you answered your own question, when you took weight off the tongue it drove better. In my experience a Jeep can"t very much tongue weight, even though they may be able to pull a fair load.



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Tim...Ok

08-23-2005 11:07:15




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 Re: Trailer Towing Question - tires (or tyres) in reply to Rick Weaver, 08-23-2005 10:43:09  
with you being so close to the max. pull on a jeep,trial and error to get it positioned just right is gonna be key..a distribution hitch should help alot..that or a bigger truck.. :^)



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teamjunkyard

08-23-2005 10:52:26




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 Re: Trailer Towing Question - tires (or tyres) in reply to Rick Weaver, 08-23-2005 10:43:09  
thats way too much trailer and load for a jeep,lucky you made it home



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Ludwig

08-23-2005 10:56:15




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 Re: Trailer Towing Question - tires (or tyres) in reply to teamjunkyard, 08-23-2005 10:52:26  
I was going to say the same thing but then I looked up the rated capacity which is 5000# so he's actually got a small safety margin there.
I'd say the tounge weight was too low causing the sway. The tractor could have shifted back just slightly making it worse too.



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rick weaver

08-23-2005 11:48:39




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 Re: Trailer Towing Question - tires (or tyres) in reply to Ludwig, 08-23-2005 10:56:15  
I didn't have any problem before on a different trailer with actual trailer tires, but that trailer didn't have brakes. I was looking for a judgment on the tires on this new trailer. I still think the tires are soft, and just wanted some corroboration - maybe someone had experienced the same thing.

I have the v8 Jeep, whose gross trailer weight can be 6500 pounds. See the page at>Link

Funny>Link you should mention the bigger vehicle. What I really want is a diesel truck (Dodge Ram 3500, Ford F-350, or Chevy 3500) with crew cab, dually's, and 5th wheel hitch.

I just wanted some help with the tire question.

Thanks
Rick

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Ludwig

08-23-2005 14:28:24




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 Re: Trailer Towing Question - tires (or tyres) in reply to rick weaver, 08-23-2005 11:48:39  
Rick,

The powerplant in the truck has very little to do with how much weight you can haul. An old IH pickup with a straight 6 and less than half the horsepower of your Jeep will tow twice as much weight. The concern here is that you don't really have a whole lot of weight to control it. I'm not 100% positive but I think the Grand Cherokee is unibody in which case you don't even have frame rails to control the load.
Without brakes that kind of load would be nearly suicidal.
And I for sure know about towing near the limit. I towed my Farmall Regular 300 miles with my '96 Dodge Dakota. I had plenty of power to pull it but just barely enough weight and wheelbase to keep everything in control. Fortunately it was a perfect day and traffic was light so we had no problems. If conditions had deteriorated I'd have pulled over and waited for them to improve.

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Jim.UT

08-23-2005 12:18:25




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 Re: Trailer Towing Question - tires (or tyres) in reply to rick weaver, 08-23-2005 11:48:39  
I tow with a Chevy C3500 dually and yes, it makes a nice difference! I think the extra wheelbase on the tow vehicle also helps keep the tail from wagging the dog.



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rick weaver

08-23-2005 12:10:01




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 Re: Trailer Towing Question - tires (or tyres) in reply to rick weaver, 08-23-2005 11:48:39  
Another PS. I wouldn't tow much over 1000 lb on a single axle. I have a heavy duty (not the guy on the corner who hobby-welds, selling lightly framed trailers) trailer, two axle, with brakes. Guys at the hitch shop commented on how nice the trailer was, and they weren't commenting on the paint.



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tyre_guy

08-23-2005 18:28:56




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 Re: Trailer Towing Question - tires (or tyres) in reply to rick weaver, 08-23-2005 12:10:01  
As for your original question, I have found that radial tires a much better made tire that bias. They pull straighter and smoother because the sidewall can give with the road, not fight the road. But of course the radials may have been too light rated. I gathered that you did not have regular trailer tires (ST) but something else. Are they (LT) rated and 15 or 16 inch? Also tires are not ply rated anymore. The numbers of plys on the sidewall mean nothing without more info. Tires are Load rated which corresponds roughly to the old ply rating. We say 6 or 8 ply but we mean C or D.

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