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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

Point Gap/Effects on Operation

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JKC

07-27-2005 13:01:55




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Can someone explain to me how an older gasoline tractor engine (12-volt) runs when the point-gap is set to close? To far apart? Can either extreme make the engine stop running completely after about 30 seconds, or would it be more likely to not start in the first place?

Thank you.




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xragman

07-28-2005 06:58:25




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 Re: Point Gap/Effects on Operation in reply to JKC, 07-27-2005 13:01:55  
trgr splained it good. some 50 years ago we set points down to.003 on flat head ford engins. Back then we didn't know the reason why, it just made them run better. this was on race motors that were worker on hourly.



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txgrn

07-29-2005 05:21:18




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 Re: Point Gap/Effects on Operation in reply to xragman, 07-28-2005 06:58:25  
Thanks xragman. You were putting a lot more whoopee in your coil with that narrow setting and your plugs were getting the benefit of it.

Understanding things I used to take for granted has become a hobby of mine as of late. I just want to know the why's.

Later,

Mark



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txgrn

07-28-2005 05:14:15




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 Re: Point Gap/Effects on Operation in reply to JKC, 07-27-2005 13:01:55  
Didn't read the other answers. Here's my 2c.

The gap sets the time the coil is sucking current. Current is energy (1/2 LI squared) where L is the inductance of the coil and I is the current running through it.

The longer the points stay closed (narrow gap) the more the current buildup in the coil (exponentially increases). So take that times the number of times you do it per unit time (rpm x # of cyl/2)and you have power transferred.

Part of that is loss in the coil which generates heat (winding resistance and core loss). Heat kills coils....but I never took an ignition coil apart to see just why.....melted solder or melted varnish.

What's funny about heat problems is that usually when the unit cools it goes back to functioning normally..... till it gets hot again.

On the other side, if too open, low current to the coil and to the plug and it may not fire the plug.

So yes it could to answer your question.

(Not being a smarta$$ here but being retired, I have to keep my brain functioning.....one reason for yakin with you guys..... and I like you.)

HTH

Mark

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Rick in the sticks

07-27-2005 19:39:00




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 Re: Point Gap/Effects on Operation in reply to JKC, 07-27-2005 13:01:55  
The closer the points are set the farther advanced your timing is set. Hence always set points first. There is generally about .002 allowance, either way, from the recomended setting. Unless it is hot rod puller just set them to the recomended setting. I would guess that either your condenser is breaking down or the coil is breaking down or trash is stopping the fuel from flowing.



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frankiee

07-27-2005 17:40:24




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 Re: Point Gap/Effects on Operation in reply to JKC, 07-27-2005 13:01:55  
Worked on a mini bike once that had a problem of quiting.
I rode it and it quit. I tried to start it and it would not go. I pushed it back to the guys garage and took a look at it and went to start it and low and behold it started right up and ran good. I hopped on it and went for a bit of a tour then it coughed and quit again. There I am again yanking on this cord again. Many years ago so I forget if it had a spark, a weak spark or no spark at all. It was north Manitoba just 75 miles south of the North West Teritories and you had to fly in to get to the remote Indian village. We had no store there where I could just go to and get parts so it was all test, test, try. I checked the points and they were smaller then specs so I gapped them thinking that the small gap was not the problem but I might as well gap them anyhow.
Could not make that bike miss a beat after that. No matter how hard I rode it.
It was the points that had closed the gap and was making the coil saturation time more. To a point it would overheat the coil and the coil would fail almost like clockwork.

I dont know what open points really do, but I know that points that are too close can take an engine that runs good and shut it down just as if someone turned the fuel off

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RustyFarmall

07-27-2005 15:26:41




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 Re: Point Gap/Effects on Operation in reply to JKC, 07-27-2005 13:01:55  
If the tractor starts OK, but then stops after 30 seconds, you have another problem, not related to the points. The problem could be the ignition coil, but I would rather suspect a fuel starvation problem.



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Bob

07-27-2005 14:12:41




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 Re: Point Gap/Effects on Operation in reply to JKC, 07-27-2005 13:01:55  
What tractor are you working with? Mag or distributor ignition?

In either case, the points need to be set to the correct specifications.

Most likely, (if the stalling problem is in fact, spark-related, rather than fuel-related), you have a condensor or coil that is bad and is thermally-sensistive, so the problem shows up as the component heats up from current flowing through it.



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dr.sportster

07-27-2005 14:06:43




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 Re: Point Gap/Effects on Operation in reply to JKC, 07-27-2005 13:01:55  
At some point it will start to miss.Depending on which way high speed miss or low speed miss,too wide, too close.It also affects engine timing so you should stick with just right not wide or close.



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