Welcome! Please use the navigational links to explore our website.
PartsASAP LogoCompany Logo Auction Link (800) 853-2651

Shop Now

   Allis Chalmers Case Farmall IH Ford 8N,9N,2N Ford
   Ferguson John Deere Massey Ferguson Minn. Moline Oliver

Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

Stray Electricity

Welcome Guest, Log in or Register
Author 
Pepper

07-06-2005 05:06:12




Report to Moderator

While helping my neighbor do his milking back many years ago, I got set on my butt with an electrical shock when I got hold of a milking bucket up on a wall holder. This holder was in the middle of the cement wall with no apparent possibility of electrical contact. Of course I was amazed. When I talked to the owner he said it happens to him all the time. He said he got sat on his butt once when he just took the bulk tank wrench off the wall.
Well, this went on for a while and he finally got the electric company over and they were cynical until they had the same thing happen.
Well to make a long story short, after much investigating they discovered that the source of the current was from radio waves coming from his neighbor's short wave radio antenae. They made necessary changes and the problem stopped.
Anyone ever heard of electricity collecting in metal because of radio waves?

[Log in to Reply]   [No Email]
Fred Martin

07-07-2005 13:52:45




Report to Moderator
 Re: Stray Electricity in reply to Pepper, 07-06-2005 05:06:12  
Rumor/hearsay has it that back when WLW radio station (Cincinnati) run 700,000 watts that the women hanging clothes on the clothes line got rf burns. Fred OH



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
MarkB_MI

07-06-2005 19:48:19




Report to Moderator
 Re: Stray Electricity in reply to Pepper, 07-06-2005 05:06:12  
In the HF spectrum where most hams operate, current tends to flow on the surface of conductors. So in the unlikely event the neighbor's shortwave rig was inducing voltage in the milk barn, you would perceive it as a tingling sensation. It would not "set you on your butt" because any induced current would flow through your skin, not through your muscle tissue.

More likely it was either induced voltage from the power line, or a problem with poor grounding of the building or electrical service. The neighbor's ham rig made a convenient scapegoat.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Sam#3

07-06-2005 17:52:36




Report to Moderator
 Re: Stray Electricity in reply to Pepper, 07-06-2005 05:06:12  
A few weeks back on one of the boards there was a lengthy discussion about capacitors. Well, guess what? Your neighbor just demonstrated how they're constructed. The antenna formed one plate and the metal objects on the wall formed the other. A large shot of power from the transmitter and the plates are charged just waiting for something/someone to complete the circuit and *POW* instant discharge. Those ham stations operate with a lot of power and it's all just looking for a place to connect. Did you hear any strange voices?

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
buickanddeere

07-06-2005 20:44:32




Report to Moderator
 Re: Stray Electricity in reply to Sam#3, 07-06-2005 17:52:36  
RF are AC. It would take a DC pulse to land a static charge as you describe it.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Kevin Bismark

07-06-2005 17:15:30




Report to Moderator
 Re: Stray Electricity in reply to Pepper, 07-06-2005 05:06:12  
I don"t buy the radio story, had many transmitters set up over the years sometimes running over a thousand watts, with questionable grounding and never had anything like that, had a few burns when the RF ended up getting into places it shouldn"t have, nothing bad though, I have to agree with buickanddeere there are some grounding bonding problems there, did you notice light bulbs that were a little brighter than normal and burning out fast, you may have had a neutral floating or close to it....

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
buickanddeere

07-06-2005 09:14:46




Report to Moderator
 Re: Stray Electricity in reply to Pepper, 07-06-2005 05:06:12  
Possible but RF waves usually cause burns and not shocks. I suspect the utility is looking for somebody to blame rather than thier own system. Is the hydro service old, beat up or built using one of those weird grounded Delta transformers? Go drive a ground rod of clamp onto something that is truely at earth potential or find a deep well casing. Measure around using a 300 ft reel of insulated wire if need be. Measure between true earth and all the hydro service panel ground, ground rods, power panel neutral bar, metal mangers, stalls etc. I suspect the system has a high resistance ground somewhere from the neutral bar back to even the ground rod's contact to the dirt it's self. Then look around for where some dumb *ss has conected a 120V load between one live line and the ground of a machine. Some wild tinkerer may have swapped neutrals and grounds somewhere too. Or somebody trying to be cheap and using a single wire for both ground and neutral. The loads in the power panel should all be close to the same current on each main line. If one line has 10 amps and the other line 90 amps. There's a trouble source right there. I'm suprised the farmer is resigned to accepting shocks causing herd health and production problems?

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
RayP(MI)

07-06-2005 08:05:25




Report to Moderator
 Re: Stray Electricity in reply to Pepper, 07-06-2005 05:06:12  
Nearfield radio waves can generate significant power on various structures nearby. This could be most anything metal, typically ungrounded - in short, it becomes an antenna. Hitension powerlines can do the same, due to strong electromagnetic field. Ham radio transmissions are sometimes the source of TV and radio interference in neighbor's equipment, usually the fault of poor designs, not made to reject the radio energy. Proper grounding, and bypassing is typically the solution. I have an antenna up which will create 1/4" sparks at the terminating cable when lightning strikes nearby. de WB8VWK

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
RayP(MI) (AGAIN!)

07-06-2005 15:50:05




Report to Moderator
 Re: Stray Electricity in reply to RayP(MI), 07-06-2005 08:05:25  
Farmers in Central Michigan had quite a bit of trouble a few years back with this type of stuff. Was traced to sloppy installations and lack of proper grounds on the part of local utility comapany. There were several lawsuits before the problems were solved, and lots of lost production on the part of ticklish cows.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
TomHath

07-06-2005 05:22:44




Report to Moderator
 Re: Stray Electricity in reply to Pepper, 07-06-2005 05:06:12  
It's usually more of a problem near transmission lines. You can steal power from the electric company with a proper setup (and if you don't get caught, it's illegal). It's the same as a generator, alternator, or electric motor.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Pepper

07-06-2005 05:30:30




Report to Moderator
 Re: Stray Electricity in reply to TomHath, 07-06-2005 05:22:44  
Why would it be illegal to use electricity that is otherwise wasted?



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
onefarmer

07-06-2005 07:18:27




Report to Moderator
 Re: Stray Electricity in reply to Pepper, 07-06-2005 05:30:30  
Because the electric is not wasted. All lines that conduct electic have a magnetic field. If you take from that magnetic field to get your own elec. then you are draining some of the field and it takes more power to generate it. That is why it takes horsepower to run a generator/alternator. Taking from a powerline is the same thing just further from the actual generator. Not a very scientific expanation but the general idea.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Mike (WA)

07-06-2005 12:20:24




Report to Moderator
 Re: Stray Electricity in reply to onefarmer, 07-06-2005 07:18:27  
Friends bought a ranch in northern British Columbia that had a high power transmission line running through it, but no local electric power available. The guy that sold them the ranch had rigged what he called a "rhombus"- basically, a wire parallel to the high tension lines, at a distance away that yielded 110 volts. Power company found it on routine inspection, and tore it down. Rancher offered to pay for installation of a power meter, and then would pay double the going power rate. No dice- if it wasn't an "official" power tap, they wouldn't allow it, period.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Pepper

07-06-2005 07:35:36




Report to Moderator
 Re: Stray Electricity in reply to onefarmer, 07-06-2005 07:18:27  
Well, I guess I was not talking about power lines to begin with. I was really talking about broadcasted radio waves contacting metal and causing an accumalation of electricity.
I had always heard about power lines causing stray electricity.
I have also heard about a manufacturing plant that had to get a transmission tower removed because it was causing to much stray current in the plant(metal building). It was on the lot right along side the plant, belonged to someone else.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
onefarmer

07-06-2005 07:58:36




Report to Moderator
 Re: Stray Electricity in reply to Pepper, 07-06-2005 07:35:36  
Well radio waves are nothing more then a magnetic field of a controled wave length, so yes if it has enough power it could cause stray voltage. Might be more like a static discharge though. That would sure knock one on his rump.



[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Ichabod

07-06-2005 10:43:18




Report to Moderator
 Re: Stray Electricity in reply to onefarmer, 07-06-2005 07:58:36  
It is highly unlikely that the problem is caused by a radio station. I've been near a 100 kilowatt radio transmitter tower with no such problems. If you do a google search for "stray current" you will find scads of information. The utilities in dairy country like Wisconsin are usually quite familiar with the problem because cows are very sensitive to very small voltages. If you look at some of the sites you will learn that there are many, many possible causes of stray current, some due to the way the utility is operated and some due to problems on site. If the voltage on the bucket was great enough to put someone on his butt I would be leaning on the utility big time to help find a solution. I am a retired electric utility company engineer, but I never heard the term stray current until after I retired. So not all utilities are gonna be able to help you much.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Pepper

07-06-2005 15:02:17




Report to Moderator
 Re: Stray Electricity in reply to Ichabod, 07-06-2005 10:43:18  
The problem was solved when the neighbor did something to his antenea and the company put him on a seperate transformer. It was back about 1968. I guess one thing the neighbor had done was pump his power way up in order to get more range.
The thing that got me was the fact that the bucket could not possible have been touching anything but the cement block wall. Personally, I know that radio waves are the same thing as sunlight just a differant wave length. Sunlight will generate electricity with the right components receiving it, I don't see why radio waves wouldn't do the same. They are energy. I don't believe this had anything to do with current directly from power lines.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
Ken Macfarlane

07-07-2005 06:05:35




Report to Moderator
 Re: Stray Electricity in reply to Pepper, 07-06-2005 15:02:17  
In dairies here, all the concrete reinforcing has to be bonded and grounded to a certain spec because of so many electrical accidents and stray current problems in barns.

Our neighbour had a hay conveyor that would shock everyone who touched it. Turns out the ground in his barn was shorted to neutral somewhere and was energizing the conveyor. The conveyor was 110 while the barn had a 220 v feed from the house.

[Log in to Reply]  [No Email]
[Options]  [Printer Friendly]  [Posting Help]  [Return to Forum]   [Log in to Reply]

Hop to:


TRACTOR PARTS TRACTOR MANUALS
We sell tractor parts!  We have the parts you need to repair your tractor - the right parts. Our low prices and years of research make us your best choice when you need parts. Shop Online Today. [ About Us ]

Home  |  Forums


Copyright © 1997-2023 Yesterday's Tractor Co.

All Rights Reserved. Reproduction of any part of this website, including design and content, without written permission is strictly prohibited. Trade Marks and Trade Names contained and used in this Website are those of others, and are used in this Website in a descriptive sense to refer to the products of others. Use of this Web site constitutes acceptance of our User Agreement and Privacy Policy

TRADEMARK DISCLAIMER: Tradenames and Trademarks referred to within Yesterday's Tractor Co. products and within the Yesterday's Tractor Co. websites are the property of their respective trademark holders. None of these trademark holders are affiliated with Yesterday's Tractor Co., our products, or our website nor are we sponsored by them. John Deere and its logos are the registered trademarks of the John Deere Corporation. Agco, Agco Allis, White, Massey Ferguson and their logos are the registered trademarks of AGCO Corporation. Case, Case-IH, Farmall, International Harvester, New Holland and their logos are registered trademarks of CNH Global N.V.

Yesterday's Tractors - Antique Tractor Headquarters

Website Accessibility Policy