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Tractor Talk Discussion Forum

Hydrostatic Power Steering

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Derek Broerse

06-25-2005 17:31:14




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I have just custom built a hydrostatic power steering system for my International B275 tractor. It works very well, but there is a slight problem/annoyance that I have to admit I hadn't counted on.

As we all know, one side of the cylinder takes more fluid to move than the other (due to the rod of the cylinder).

My problem is simple enough! If I turn left from center, it takes two turns of the wheel. If I turn right from center, it takes only ONE! Makes for a really weird ride down the road...:P

Short of using a double-ended cylinder, is there another way to equalize the fluid flow? I was thinking there must be a valve that dumps a percentage of the flow back to the power steering pump for the one direction maybe?

How is this done on other tractors?

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Dean Hatt

01-09-2006 19:39:41




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 Re: Hydrostatic Power Steering in reply to Derek Broerse, 06-25-2005 17:31:14  
Planning on buying a 1960 b275 in 2 weeks I would like to put power sterring on it do not know what kind of pump and cylinders to use can anyone help Thanks Dean



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frankiee

06-26-2005 17:39:42




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 Re: Hydrostatic Power Steering in reply to Derek Broerse, 06-25-2005 17:31:14  
Interesting
I have a computer program around my house somewhere that simulates speeds, pressures etc. with various setups. I just gotta dig it up.
We did this in class last year, I'm in Marine Engineering, but I cant quite remember how to do it. I will have to dig up my notes and the program to try any ideas.
I have a report I have to have done and handed in tommorow so I wont do it now but if you wait and check your post in 2 days I will post any ideas that I have after refering to my notes.
I might even ask my hydaulics teacher.
In my mind there is a simple fix. Just cant think of it right now. No promises though.
I will post in a couple of days OK

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Derek Broerse

06-27-2005 07:38:41




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 Re: Hydrostatic Power Steering in reply to frankiee, 06-26-2005 17:39:42  
Sounds great, thanks, keep me posted. Seems like a potentially simple fix there somewhere to me too... I just don't know hydraulics enough to just start merrily changing things...



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frankiee

06-28-2005 05:20:59




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 Re: Hydrostatic Power Steering in reply to Derek Broerse, 06-27-2005 07:38:41  
Link

Here is a link to the hydraulic simulation software that I use.
It will take you a while to figure out how to use it. This is the program we use in school.
If you wanted to play with it I sent the link.
I have not looked into the problem yet but I will before tommorrow. They are making me work in school.
I will post again tommorrow.

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frankiee

06-28-2005 16:10:52




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 Re: Hydrostatic Power Steering in reply to frankiee, 06-28-2005 05:20:59  
I played with the program this morning some and got the speed the same using a throttle valve.
Takes a while to remember how that program works.
Tonite I study for a turbine test tomorrow and I will play with any ideas tomorrow nite. The throttle valve is along the same idea that chads had mentioned



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Derek Broerse

06-29-2005 19:53:28




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 Re: Hydrostatic Power Steering in reply to frankiee, 06-28-2005 16:10:52  
That looks interesting, thanks. I downloaded it but haven't had a chance to figure it out yet... been kinda buried lately with a pile of family probs. If you happen to find something that works before I do please let me know!! ;)
Thanks!



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Joe(TX)

06-26-2005 09:02:50




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 Re: Hydrostatic Power Steering in reply to Derek Broerse, 06-25-2005 17:31:14  
You need a cylinder with a smaller rod.



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Jon H

06-25-2005 19:12:06




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 Re: Hydrostatic Power Steering in reply to Derek Broerse, 06-25-2005 17:31:14  
Only two tie rod cylinder systens that are balanced. A double ended,double acting cylinder like some IH models use, or two single acting cylinders like on my Oliver 2150.



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52 JDeere BGuy

06-25-2005 19:01:27




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 Re: Hydrostatic Power Steering in reply to Derek Broerse, 06-25-2005 17:31:14  
Sometimes the position/angle of the cylinder in relation to the steering arm will give you the same type of situation. Can you move the cylinder to the opposite side or change the angle? It might cancel out the cylinder rod problem. I would think the power cylinder should be as parallel to the front axle as possible for the least amount of variance between left and right turns. Bruce in NE INdiana

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Tramway Guy

06-25-2005 18:35:49




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 Re: Hydrostatic Power Steering in reply to Derek Broerse, 06-25-2005 17:31:14  
Yes, there is, but it is probably much more expensive than a double end ("balanced")cylinder. And it would be much more complicated.

Off-roaders use them, large boats use them, and they are available from surplus stores.



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Old Pokey

06-25-2005 17:43:40




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 Re: Hydrostatic Power Steering in reply to Derek Broerse, 06-25-2005 17:31:14  
Such a valve would probably have to be custom made and cost a fortune. Or it would cause more problems than it would solve. Put a second cylinder on it. Two standard tie rod cylinders will work fine. Just do the math and figure out the size you need to keep the steering turns where you want it and install two cylinders.



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Derek Broerse

06-25-2005 17:53:31




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 Re: Hydrostatic Power Steering in reply to Old Pokey, 06-25-2005 17:43:40  
There is really no place for another cylinder. The current cylinder replaces the single draglink on the LH side that this tractor uses. It hooks to the top of the spindle (an L shape) which uses a tie rod between the R and L wheels...

Isn't there another way?



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Old Pokey

06-26-2005 07:01:29




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 Re: Hydrostatic Power Steering in reply to Derek Broerse, 06-25-2005 17:53:31  
Yes there are allways other options, but sometimes not so cost effective:-) You could piggyback the two smaller cylinders on top of each other but one turned end for end is one way. Another way is the exponential steering like 52JDeereBguy mentions. But it would require some machineing and you do run the risk of overpowering the spindle or axle and breaking it since it may not be designed to handle the stresses imposed at certain turning positions. Some of the old 3 wheel swamp buggy fert spreaders used a hydraulic motor and chain and sprockets to steer. I dont like that setup much. I ran one and it was'nt the most confidence inspiring experience. But your current hand pump would run a motor just fine. Another way to utilize the 2 cylinder idea is to put one in place of the existing cylinder and then fab up some mounts to put the second cylinder on the cross tie rod. But you would have to make sure cross tie rod travels the same distance as the main cylinder does. Or, you could even put both cylinders down on the cross tie rod. Each one facing the opposite direction. This is probably the most common way to do it, but make sure you keep the cross tie rod installed to keep the cylinders in phase and your toe in constant.

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504

06-25-2005 19:32:17




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 Re: Hydrostatic Power Steering in reply to Derek Broerse, 06-25-2005 17:53:31  
Look at a power steering set up on a lawn tractor,JD-455,445,318 etc. They ues one cyl but do turn shorter one way than the other.



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Bob

06-25-2005 21:02:26




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 Re: Hydrostatic Power Steering in reply to 504, 06-25-2005 19:32:17  
I suspect if you checked out the Deeres you mention, you'd find out it takes slightly less steering wheel rotation to steer "lock-to-lock" in one direction than the other.

The reason the difference is SMALL is that a relatively LARGE steering cylinder is used with with a SMALL piston rod. The combination of the LARGE cylinder and the SMALL rod makes the percentage of difference in displacement from one side of the cylinder to the other less than if a LARGE piston rode were used.

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Bob

06-25-2005 18:38:06




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 Re: Hydrostatic Power Steering in reply to Derek Broerse, 06-25-2005 17:53:31  
Yeah, there's another way. Simply learn to live with it. There's more than one factory-made piece of equipment that is set up that way, and it works just fine unless you spend a lot of time worrying about it.

Another thing... steering cylinders usually have a slender piston rod that doesn't displace much fluid... if you are seeing such a great difference in steering speed from right to left, it sounds as if you are using a cylinder with a "fat" rod.

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Derek Broerse

06-26-2005 14:50:23




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 Re: Hydrostatic Power Steering in reply to Bob, 06-25-2005 18:38:06  
Thanks for the input, guys.

The problem is indeed exactly what I thought, the rod is too thick as it is a regular off-the-shelf Shur-Lift cylinder from Princess Auto. I'm probably going to just have to learn to live with it, at least until I come across exactly what I am looking for. The tractor works on our property most of the time, and 90% of the remainder it get floated to where it needs to go. It's really only that weird feeling while driving at road speeds.

My brother has a JD455, I'll have to check his out. Mind you, his is Quadrasteer so that may make a difference too (sure does to lawn mowing!). Actually that tractor is neat too, as it has a home designed and built front end loader on it! (not available for four-wheel-steer JD455's). It was entirely built from scratch from scrap steel, with the exception of the cylinders and hoses, pins and bearings.

If anyone has any further input be sure to yell it out! I'll probably be posting a bunch of pictures on the International B-Series Group on Yahoo...

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ChadS

06-26-2005 15:45:24




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 Re: Hydrostatic Power Steering in reply to Derek Broerse, 06-26-2005 14:50:23  
I built a hydrostatic steering set up for a IH 460 pulling tractor last year. I used a cyl off a IH 403 combine, worked, but had the same problem,, turned too fast,,, I ended up putting an orface in the pressure line to reduce the line pressure, now, instead of 2 turns, it is up to 4. Drives great. The parts I used was the flow divider from any 06-56 IH tractor from the steering, IH combine servo (hand pump off the steering wheel) ford power steering pump, and the steering cyl off the same combine. Hope this helps,, Chad

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Derek Broerse

06-27-2005 07:31:29




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 Re: Hydrostatic Power Steering in reply to ChadS, 06-26-2005 15:45:24  
Chad, is there any reason why I couldn't do this on just one side of the cylinder?



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ChadS

06-27-2005 16:17:47




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 Re: Hydrostatic Power Steering in reply to Derek Broerse, 06-27-2005 07:31:29  
Yeah, you could orface the pressure line at the steering cyl, This slows down the flow and makes it operate slower. make sure the pressure line is in good shape, cause it will have alot of back pressure, but should be ok. You might be able to use a small flat washer, that can fit inside the fitting, or, reduce the size of the connector down to a smaller size. reduce it by at least half the line size, I run 1/2 hyd hose, and since I have a ford power steering pump, I cut a little off the pressure relief spring in the pump, which dropped line pressure and tuned it in to where it feels like stock. Chad

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