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Another oil question....

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Stan(PA)

06-11-2005 11:03:31




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Okay, dumb question, but I"m askin" it anyway...
If multi weight oil really does what it"s supposed to, Why does my oil pressure drop when the engine warms up? I"m using 15-40 in my 1946 Farmall A.




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Leland

06-11-2005 23:01:48




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 Re: Another oil question.... in reply to Stan(PA), 06-11-2005 11:03:31  
the pros claim as long as you have 10psi of oil pressure per 1000 rpms you are in good shape.



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Leland

06-11-2005 23:01:33




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 Re: Another oil question.... in reply to Stan(PA), 06-11-2005 11:03:31  
the pros claim as long as you have 10psi of oil pressure per 1000 rpms you are in good shape.



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Leland

06-11-2005 23:00:33




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 Re: Another oil question.... in reply to Stan(PA), 06-11-2005 11:03:31  
the pros claim as long as you have 10psi of oil pressure per 1000 rpms you are in good shape.



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Hermit

06-11-2005 17:21:16




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 Re: Another oil question.... in reply to Stan(PA), 06-11-2005 11:03:31  
It has to do with the interpretation of the numbers. The numbers 15W-40 of a multi-weight oil don't represent the actual oil viscosity but the SAE viscosity index numbers. The 15W-40 oil conforms to the viscosity specs of a 15W grade oil at 0 deg F (the "W" standing for winter) and a 40 grade oil at 210 deg F. As for the actual kinematic viscosity of 15W-40 oil (measured in centistokes), the oil at 0 deg F is 5000 centistokes and at 210 deg F is 14 centistokes. In other words, all oils thin out as they heat up and the SAE index numbers of a multi-weight oil just tell you how they appear to act when cold or when hot.

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Stan(PA)

06-11-2005 18:44:56




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 Re: Another oil question.... in reply to Hermit, 06-11-2005 17:21:16  
Hermit, let"s see if I"m getting this straight....
Are you saying that 15-40 has the same viscosity as straight 40 would at 210 degrees? If so, what is the advantage of straight 40?
If I"m still all boned up on this, I won"t blame you guys for giving up on me :)



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Hermit

06-12-2005 05:40:50




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 Re: Another oil question.... in reply to Stan(PA), 06-11-2005 18:44:56  
Because of the additives in the oil, a 15W-40 oil will act like a straight 40 oil at 210 deg F. It is not the advantage but the disadvantage of a straight 40. A straight 40 is much thicker when cold, making it difficult to start the engine. That's why an oil that acts like a 15 weight oil makes for easier starting when it's cold out. If you change the name "multi-weight oil" to "multi-season oil", it may make it more understandable. It saves from using a 40 weight oil in the heat of summer and switching to 20 weight oil in the cold of winter.

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old

06-11-2005 11:28:53




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 Re: Another oil question.... in reply to Stan(PA), 06-11-2005 11:03:31  
As Alen says as far as when its warm. As far as the other that can be a yes or no. Some old engines just don't like muti weight oils. I've had tractors that with a muti weight oil they have almost no preassure and with say a 30W, or 40W have good oil preassure and have run good for years and the preassure has come up where it should be.



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Stan(PA)

06-11-2005 12:14:12




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 Re: Another oil question.... in reply to old, 06-11-2005 11:28:53  
"Some old engines just don"t like muti weight oils"
Would this be due to size of oil passages, or the design of the oil pump?
Maybe I"ll try some straight 30 wt and see what happens.....Stan



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old

06-11-2005 12:31:39




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 Re: Another oil question.... in reply to Stan(PA), 06-11-2005 12:14:12  
Part of it has to do with the fact that they are old, pumps get weak, clearances aren't as tight as they once where and most old engine where just plain made to run on the stright weight oils. I have a 1935 JD-B that when I tried a muti weight oil in it just plain didn't have oil preassure. Put what the 1935 owners manual said to run in it and the preassure is right where it should be. Note this tracotr still has the same rings etc as it did when my grandfather was useing it 50 years ago, yes it smokes a little but since it still run pretty good on the old rings I'm sure not going to put new in.

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Allan in NE

06-11-2005 11:13:16




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 Re: Another oil question.... in reply to Stan(PA), 06-11-2005 11:03:31  
Hi Stan,

Nothin' dumb about that. Oil pressure will always drop a tad when the oil thins due to heat.

How far is it dropping? Is it a drastic change? Like clear down around 10 to 15 lbs when hot?

If there is a big difference between hot and cold, it means the bearings are wobbled out and you are due for an engine.

Allan



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mark

06-11-2005 12:56:45




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 Re: Another oil question.... in reply to Allan in NE, 06-11-2005 11:13:16  
Hi Stan,

Nothin' dumb about that. Oil pressure will always drop a tad when the oil thins due to heat.

How far is it dropping? Is it a drastic change? Like clear down around 10 to 15 lbs when hot?

If there is a big difference between hot and cold, it means the bearings are wobbled out and you are due for an engine.

Allan

This is the plain unadorned facts! If the bearings are tight, 10 wt. oil will show proper pressure. I had the same trouble but the truth was nothing but bearing clearence. I wouldn't do anything but run that engine until the bottom fell out of the gauge. Truth is 15-20 pounds of pressure will keep the innards slick enough..... sure 50 is better. When it gets to depriving you of sleep, yank it down one winter and go through it.

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Stan(PA)

06-11-2005 12:06:37




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 Re: Another oil question.... in reply to Allan in NE, 06-11-2005 11:13:16  
Allan, she still runs pretty strong, with a very small amount of smoke from the breather when I"m mowing in heavy grass. I don"t think the engine is too bad. The part I don"t understand is this, if the oil is acting as 15 wt. when cold, and 40 wt when warmed up, it seems the pressure should increase when warm (40 wt). My gage is the old Farmall type, so it only shows "green" range for the first 15 or 20 minutes of mowing, then drops into the "white" range. Never does drop down to the "stop" range. I know I should get a real gauge on it, and I will eventually..... Stan

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txgrn

06-12-2005 07:16:12




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 Re: Another oil question.... in reply to Stan(PA), 06-11-2005 12:06:37  
If you look at a viscosity curve vs temp on oils, a straight weight oil will solidify at a certain low temp and flow like gasoline at a certain high temp based upon it's "weight". Higher the number the higher the curve shifts up in viscosity (thickness vs temp).

The thing oil companies are trying to achieve with multiviscosities is to alter the oil's drastic viscosity change so that you can lower the temp where the oil solidifies and raise the temp where it runs.

The thicker the oil the higher the oil pressure. Hence when oil is cold it is thick and you get high pressure. When it gets hot the difference is true. Multiviscosity oils flatten out this curve and keep it thinner cold and thicker hot.

Also, as mentioned, your engine bearings open up as temp goes up and they aggrivate the oil pressure problem.

I ran an experiment on a MF 35 with a Perkins 3 cyl diesel. I didn't like the oil pressure variance from the time I started it till I had finished using it. It had a lot of wear on the engine and obviously the big change wasn't all the oil's fault.

I put in 15w-40 diesel oil and straight 40w. Obviously the curve was higher on the straight weight oil and I had higher oil pressure the whole time.

Problem is, this winter the 40w will be jello and I willl have to change to the thinner oil. That means two seasonal changes which I am not going to do. So I returned the multiviscosity and tolerated the slightly lower oil pressure.

Mark

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Coloken

06-11-2005 14:13:46




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 Re: Another oil question.... in reply to Stan(PA), 06-11-2005 12:06:37  
"pressure should increase when warm" No,no-- Its "as good as" 40 weight when warm. Doesn't mean it gets thicker, just that it gets thiner slower. That means that it gets thiner, just not as thin as 15 weight. I too feel that straight weight holds a ittle better pressure in loose engines. Very little presure is needed to lubricate.



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old

06-11-2005 12:16:58




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 Re: Another oil question.... in reply to Stan(PA), 06-11-2005 12:06:37  
Thats part of the trouble with multi weight oils in theory that is what happens but that isn't really what happens, they never thicken up or hold that like a stright weight oil does.



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bruce werner

06-11-2005 17:09:27




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 Re: Another oil question.... in reply to old, 06-11-2005 12:16:58  
Most multi-vis motor oils had a poor and unreliable viscosity improver formula built into them the first several years that HD multi-vis oils were marketed. Most consumers were better served with using a 30 grade oil, not a 15W/40. However, science and the chemical companies have been able to blend very dependable multi-vis additive packages for diesels and HD gas engine oils for quite a few years now. Take an oil like Chevron Delo, or Mobil Delvac. or Shell Rotella in 15W/40, you could run these in a big truck for 20,000 miles and send a used oil sample in for analysis, and what you would find is that the viscosity improvers were still working fine, at 100C or 210F, the oil would still be in the 40 grade range. It would still protect like a 40 grade. Oil will never be metal in a can, to replace worn bearings and crankshafts. But most old tractors should perform very well with 15W/40, with the advantage of easier starting and cranking by far in severe cold winter months. You could expect a 1 1/2 percent savings on fuel consumtion with a multi-vis over a straight grade. Virtually all of the big improvements in motor oils have been in multi-vis products, not straight grades. Most if not all new engine warranties require use of multi-vis oils.

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old

06-11-2005 18:15:38




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 Re: Another oil question.... in reply to bruce werner, 06-11-2005 17:09:27  
Well as I said in theory it does that, and I'm to old to believe it. Yes if I had a new car/truck it would be one thing but I don't so I'll stick to my stright weight oils. Just think science says a bee can't fly so they can't be right all the time



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