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O/T: Pesky GM 4.3 V-6 Vortec

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Maine Fordson

04-28-2005 15:21:17




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I'm about at my wits' end with this situation, and I'm hoping that I may find an answer in this forum, given the wide range of expertise to be found here.

I have a GM Vortec V-6 (4.3-liter) on a '93 Blazer that does not like to start after setting for more than a day or two. The engine (a GM "Goodwrench" rebuilt) has about 25K miles on it, and if it is used every day, starts and runs absolutely fine -- not a hint of trouble.

But, if I don't use it for a couple of days, the trouble begins.

When I turn the key to the "on" position, I hear the fuel pump pressurize the fuel system and then shut off, like it's supposed to (about 3-4 seconds, usually). When I crank the engine over, though, it doesn't even offer to start. It'll crank and crank, usually not even hitting on any cylinders at first, and then I can hear the fuel pump running for at least 20 seconds or so. When I turn the key back to the "on" position, the fuel pump will run for 3-4 seconds and then shut off, and I try to start the engine. Same thing happens, and fuel pump runs its 20+ seconds and then shuts off. Strange.

Oddly enough, though, there have been times when I've said to heck with it and left it alone until the next day. When I go out to try it again (at least 12-18 hours), it'll sometimes start right up on the first try.

This first started happening in the winter -- I thought it was cold-related. Tried Dri-Gas (and other fuel water-removal additives). I'd take the heat gun out and warm the top of the plenum, and usually could coax it into starting. But temps here today are in the mid-40s, and I've been hassling with this thing for the past couple hours again.

Fuel pump is nearly new, central-port injector is nearly new, distributor was replaced last summer, fuel filter is only a couple months old... I can't really think of a part that could be faulty.

I'm out of ideas here, guys. What am I overlooking?

-- Maine Fordson

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Maark

04-29-2005 15:12:56




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 Re: O/T: Pesky GM 4.3 V-6 Vortec in reply to Maine Fordson, 04-28-2005 15:21:17  
I too had the plastic fuel lines in the plenum area develop a crack. It would squirt gas directly into the intake and cause a rich mixture. Used to be around $70.00 from GM.. Couldn't find anything else to replace them with.



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Bryan in Iowa

04-29-2005 13:58:57




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 Re: O/T: Pesky GM 4.3 V-6 Vortec in reply to Maine Fordson, 04-28-2005 15:21:17  
You need to know what fuel pressure is . 55-61 key on engine off . If not in this range they will NOT start or will be every hard to start. also watch how fast gauge drops after pump shuts off . These are known for pressure reg problems , fuel pumps , fuel dampers . Keep us posted .



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jdemaris

04-29-2005 05:07:26




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 CPI pressure problems difficult to diagnose in reply to Maine Fordson, 04-28-2005 15:21:17  
You didn't mention if it has VIN code "W" or "Z" engine. If it is a "W", I can almost guarantee you the CPI "tarantula" module is causing the problem. The "W" code does not have throttle-body injection, but instead uses a central injector hooked to 6 output lines and check-valves and it is serviced/replaced as an assembly. It is prone to the sort of problems you've mentioned once it gets some mileage on it. It is very difficult to diagnose with pressure gauges. The problem is, the electric fuel pump, unlike that used in TBI, is a high-pressure unit and runs around 55 - 65 PSI, constantly. The check valves in the CPI pod are set to open at 45 PSI. So, in theory, if the electric fuel pump pressure falls below 45 PSI, the engine will not start. The reality is, I have worked on many that have fuel pumps putting out 55 PSI and they still would not run. There is a very small margin of pressure area where the engine will start and run. To compound the issue, if your pressure gauge is just a few pounds off, it makes things even more confusing. You say your CPI is almost new - and so is your fuel pump, so I guess you do have a "W" code engine. Check fuel pressure at the schrader valve at the back of the engine. I'm wondering what exactly was installed for the new CPI and fuel pump. Were they AC Delco or an equivalent? I like to know the part numbers. Some of the AC Delco replacement parts are absolute crap. What ticks me off is that AC Delco knows it, but seems to be unloading a lot of bad parts anyway. Was your CPI installed new, or was it a "rebuilt" unit? Also, the fuel-pulse dampener, hooked in line with the electric fuel pump can cause a lot of trouble - you're much better eliminating it when installing pump. Many of them leak down. It too, can cause the problem. By the way, if you don't have the proper hookup for the fuel pressure Shrader valve, and air conditioning manifold line will fit, if it's the old style for R12. You also might read some tech. articles on the CPI problems, e.g. at: Link

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jdemaris

04-29-2005 05:10:34




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 One more thing . . . in reply to jdemaris, 04-29-2005 05:07:26  
I forgot to mention, although bargains are rare on Ebay, there have been many brand new CPIs and fuel pumps for sale on Ebay. I've been buying new CPIs for $100 and new fuel pumps for $40. Compare that to over-the-counter prices, and it's a very good deal.



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JHT

04-29-2005 07:00:37




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 Re: One more thing . . . in reply to jdemaris, 04-29-2005 05:10:34  
jdemaris,sorry to interrupt,but who makes the delco fuel pump. I just installed a new one on my chevy,it is a masters that i got from advance,looks identical to the delco.my truck is a 2003 with the 4.8 engine



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jdemaris

04-29-2005 07:19:14




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 Re: One more thing . . . in reply to JHT, 04-29-2005 07:00:37  
Over the past few years, it appears that Delco had become more of a repackager/reseller than a manufacturer of parts. In regard to the fuel pump, it appears that they have changed manufacturers several times. The last electric pump I installed in a CPI system was a Masters, but it was originally bought from Autozone. Whoever originally made it, I don't know. I do know, that in many circumstances, Delco buys their stuff from the same places in China as other companies do. I know of several parts, right now, that Delco offers for sale that they know are defective or do not meet OEM specs - but they are selling them anyway - apparently just to unload them rather than take a loss. That's a shame. I was an AC Delco fan for years - the name used to represent some insurance of quality. Not anymore. If I was rich, I'd sue them for some of the problems their defective parts have caused me. I am NOT rich, so the case is moot.

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MarkB_MI

04-28-2005 19:08:34




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 Re: O/T: Pesky GM 4.3 V-6 Vortec in reply to Maine Fordson, 04-28-2005 15:21:17  
The next time it acts up, try hitting it with a shot of starting fluid. That will tell you in an instant whether it's a fuel problem or not.

It sounds like it might be moisture related, since it causes trouble when it's cold. I assume all the ignition wires were replaced with the engine.



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cdmn

04-28-2005 18:40:30




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 Re: O/T: Pesky GM 4.3 V-6 Vortec in reply to Maine Fordson, 04-28-2005 15:21:17  
Might be the crankshaft position sensor. Had that problem and fixed it.



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Bob

04-28-2005 15:42:05




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 Re: O/T: Pesky GM 4.3 V-6 Vortec in reply to Maine Fordson, 04-28-2005 15:21:17  
After it sits a couple of days, BUT BEFORE TRYING TO START IT, put a charger on the battery for an hour, and see if it starts better.

If it does start better with the battery charged up, you need to determine if the battery is weak, or is being excessively drained by an electrical "leak" somewhere, during the time it sits without being started.

Have the battery checked with a load tester, if possible.

The injectors in that fuel system will not squirt unless the full fuel pressure is available. If the battery is low, or the pump is weak, there will be no fuel injected during cranking, while there is the load of the starter on the battery.

I can't remember the exact fuel pressure spec, you need to find out the spec, and put a gauge on it to be sure the pressure is maintained during cranking. Even a couple of pounds low, and the injectors will not inject.

Also, check all battery cables, connections and grounds... body to frame and engine, etc.

Almost certainly, the answer is low fuel pressure, likely caused by a weak or drained battery, or a poor connection somewhere.

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Maine Fordson

04-28-2005 15:56:28




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 Re: O/T: Pesky GM 4.3 V-6 Vortec in reply to Bob, 04-28-2005 15:42:05  
Thanks for the quick reply, Bob.

Battery is new, but I had considered the electrical system. I bought a tool that plugs into the cigarette lighter and gives an L.C.D. readout of the system's voltage, both while running/charging, and when the engine's off, as well -- i.e., 14.3v while running, and 12.8v with the key off. Those readings would appear to be in the normal range, I think.

I don't suspect fuel delivery as the cause, because I can always smell fuel after cranking. (In fact, once last winter there was enough fuel in the exhaust system to cause it to ignite and backfire, with that explosion puffing a nearly-new muffler out in the process. And, as I mentioned in the original post, fuel pump, filter and CPI all are new (replaced within the past few months).

The puzzle continues. Thanks for your input.

-- Maine Fordson

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AV

04-28-2005 18:27:37




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 Re: O/T: Pesky GM 4.3 V-6 Vortec in reply to Maine Fordson, 04-28-2005 15:56:28  
Check the hard fuel line that bends through the plenum to the injector. I had a 92 Jimmy withn the same set up and very similar circumstances. This line had a crack in it and the fuel was just pouring into the plenum. This would create a hydraulic situation and not let the engine turn over. This may not be problem but it worth a look.



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Bob

04-28-2005 18:25:54




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 Re: O/T: Pesky GM 4.3 V-6 Vortec in reply to Maine Fordson, 04-28-2005 15:56:28  
If you are getting excessive fuel in the engine, it cold be a problem with the CFI injector fittings or fuel pressure regulator. Again, a pressure gauge will help check this out. After the fuel pump has run and stopped, the longer the pressure stays up, the better. If there is a leak near the CFI, under the upper intake, that will show up, or as B&D says, a leak in the fuel system in the tank, near the pump.

Having a spark tester plugged into one of the plug wires would be a good idea, too, to verify whether or not there's spark as soon as you begin cranking it, after sitting a couple of days, to cover all possible angles.

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buickanddeere

04-28-2005 17:40:41




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 Re: O/T: Pesky GM 4.3 V-6 Vortec in reply to Maine Fordson, 04-28-2005 15:56:28  
It's the voltage across the fuel pumps supply terminals when cranking is the issue. Try a pressure gauge. My wife's GMC was ungly to start. Turns out the rubber pulsation snubber had split and was squirting fuel back into the tank. Check the grounds to the entire electrical system. There are several grounds on the engine. A high resistance connection will baffle the ECM/PCM/VCM. Or cause a weak spark.

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