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Biodiesel

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Mark - IN.

04-07-2005 20:08:09




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I've heard about biodiesel, as many have, know little about it, so decided to begin doing research on it. Fossil diesel's as expensive as premium gasoline by me, and I go through plenty in the trucks and tractors. When I did a Google search on "biofuels", the first thing that came up was "biodiesel titration", which was how to clean used vegetable cooking oil, mixtures, formulas, measurements. Anyone here ever try it or familiar with it? Almost looked like I'd be cooking drugs behind the barn, which aint what I'm after. Finding or making a cheaper diesel alternative would be a good thing, ending up on a FBI poster would pretty much ruin my day.

Mark

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T_Bone

04-08-2005 08:11:59




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 Re: Biodiesel in reply to Mark - IN., 04-07-2005 20:08:09  
Biodiesel is SVO (straight virgin vegetable oil) with the glycerine removed. There are two huge pig fat processors making Biodiesel, one in Utah and one in Washington State.

SVO can be used on IDI diesels at 25%SVO to 75%#2D without preheating. A University study said any more than that, then injector fouling and top ring on the pistons would stick on IDI engines, about 500hrs. A 1996 study so it's was too old for DI engines.

There some people running 150º SVO at 100% in DI diesels. No body has that 250k miles test done for me to risk my $10k DI engine.

WVO (waste vegetable oil) can be filtered very easy to SVO standards, according to some. Most are removing the glycerine from WVO then using it as it saves alot of filtering time. I never found a University study on WVO. Alot of shade tree brewing going on tho.

2% SVO can be added to #1D to equal the lube quality's of #2D, another University study, late 1999.

For a good read on the subject with tons of info, click below.

T_Bone

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heiko

04-09-2005 09:45:24




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 Re: Biodiesel in reply to T_Bone, 04-08-2005 08:11:59  
over here in germany, bio-diesel is methyl-esther, made by extracted and processed oil from e.g. soy-beans. only plants and their products, no animals.
it has nothing to do with pig-fat or anything like that.
there are people running their motors with fry-fat or pure veg.-oil. but this ist not meant by bio-diesel here.



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jdemaris

04-08-2005 06:00:10




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 Re: Biodiesel in reply to Mark - IN., 04-07-2005 20:08:09  
I haven't done it myself, but I've read a bit on it. Try looking at: Link Several European countries have a "blanket road tax law", which requires anyone to pay fuel tax on any vehicle regardless of what the fuel is. This has led to several arrests in England for people "cheating" by using coooking oil and not paying the tax. I suspect, that if use became widespread in the U.S., there were indeed be a new tax here. With the so-called "bio-diesel" in the U.S., there is the mindset of using used cooking oil, and also that of producing fuel from farm products e.g. soybeans. Willy Nelson now owns a few truck stops and has been promoting soybean fuel. I heard one of his half-hour long info-mercials and it seems he has no idea of what he's talking about. I think he should stick to his guitar and singing. He says the supply of soybean fuel has no limits and it would free the U.S from it's oil dependancy. Now, it seems to me that farming requires oil - oil is used to run tractors, make fertilizers, herbicides, pesticides, etc. So, soybeans don't come for "free" as Willy claims. As far as using cooking oil, it has worse cold weather problems than diesel, but it seems to work pretty well in warmer climates. Some people are using dual-tank systems, i.e. starting on diesel and then switching over to grease. Problem is, is works well when only a few people want it. Once there is a large demand, it's not going to be cheap. I'm kind of interested in the trash burning tractors and autos that have been built all over the world in places and times when oil was not available. Not very practical for something that gets started and stopped a lot, but still interesting. It allows a gas engine to run off the fumes of a smoldering fire.

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Mike (WA)

04-08-2005 08:12:22




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 Re: Biodiesel in reply to jdemaris, 04-08-2005 06:00:10  
Re your last paragraph- the technique was widely used in England during WWII- when it wasn't a question of rationing, they just plain didn't have enough fuel to go around. The fuel was actually produced by "cooking" green wood, coal or other vegetative material, and burning the gas that was produced by the "cooker". It was called "producer gas"- worked OK, but was a hassle to start the fire a half hour beforehand, tending the fire while on the road, etc. Kind of like a steam engine in that regard.

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jdemaris

04-08-2005 13:06:23




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 Re: Biodiesel in reply to Mike (WA), 04-08-2005 08:12:22  
Yeah, I've read several articles about the WWII equipment. The system is still used today in some remote places for tractor use. I've got several sets of plans, kind of looks like a barbecue smoker attached to the the tractor.



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MarkB_MI

04-08-2005 02:31:29




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 Re: Biodiesel in reply to Mark - IN., 04-07-2005 20:08:09  
Biodiesel is popular in Europe because of the high taxes on motor fuel. A German friend of mine tells me it's cheaper to buy cooking oil in the grocery store than it is to buy diesel at the pump.

Although used cooking oil may be free or cheap today, when the demand goes up, so will the price. I hear that already they're having problems in California with people stealing used cooking oil from restaurants.

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heiko

04-09-2005 09:31:49




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 Re: Biodiesel in reply to MarkB_MI, 04-08-2005 02:31:29  
the thing here in germany is, that they don't charge mineral-oil-tax on biodiesel, as it is no mineral-oil.
but it's just funny to see that the tax is much, MUCH higher than the price-difference between normal diesel and bio-diesel. it is only 5 to 10 cent a litre, which is about 20-40 cent a gallon.
and the last tax raise on diesel was 7 cent alone.
but the difference never changes. diesel goes up -> biodiesel goes up, too and so on and so on.
they put their hands in our pockets whereever they can.
and they don't feel a shame.
no way....

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heiko

04-08-2005 00:37:44




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 Re: Biodiesel in reply to Mark - IN., 04-07-2005 20:08:09  
used biodiesel in my volkswagen TDI for about 100000km here in germany.
then all of a sudden, my diesel-pump pi##ed off from one moment to the other. most of the seals worn.
they have told me before, that biodiesel has been developed to be a detergent,so i was warned but couldn't believe it.
nevertheless the car was allowed by volkswagen to drive with biodiesel,they didn't spend a penny on the replacement of the pump. cost: about 2000$
when using biodiesel in the car, i had to replace the fuel-filter at least twice as much as with diesel.
if there was a bargain in biodiesel, this would have been eaten by the filters alone. not to mention the pump.
no biodiesel anymore.
maybe veg-oil one day.
but methyl-esther? no way anymore !!!!!

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720Deere

04-08-2005 06:10:02




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 Re: Biodiesel in reply to heiko, 04-08-2005 00:37:44  
That's one of the downfalls of biodiesel if run in high or pure concentrations. It will eat and destroy anything rubber over time. That's why most places are running 80% dinosaur and 20% soybean.

As far as filters clogging, you either didn't have a good clean source or it could have been from rubber fuel line parts disintegrating and clogging the system.



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Farmered

04-08-2005 02:41:50




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 Re: Biodiesel in reply to heiko, 04-08-2005 00:37:44  
Heiko, Sounds like a poor filtering job before you put the stuff in the VW tank. With a hundred thousand miles on the pump I wouldn't be blaming the fuel. Sounds like normal wear to me.
The reason I would shy away from fry oil is that I would be afraid that a counter person would get too close to the cooker with that big salt shaker.
Don't think that a dose of salt would be beneficial to the fine surfaces of the pump or injectors. Ed

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JMS/MN

04-07-2005 23:11:01




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 Re: Biodiesel in reply to Mark - IN., 04-07-2005 20:08:09  
Biodiesel is a soybean product- not something that came out of the dumpster at some greasy spoon fry hutch.



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Paul in Mich

04-08-2005 04:58:33




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 Re: Biodiesel in reply to JMS/MN, 04-07-2005 23:11:01  
Shucks, I was sort of thinking that deep in some "smokless" filled board room, there was talk of the newest item on the drive through menu which would be some "McBiofuel" to go with those burgers and fries. They could just pump out the deep friers into the tank and you could pump it into your tank on the way out.



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Davis In SC

04-07-2005 21:42:32




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 Re: Biodiesel in reply to Mark - IN., 04-07-2005 20:08:09  
Maybe all the "Meth Labs" the find here are really Biodiesel labs..... .:^)



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ronmn

04-07-2005 20:56:36




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 Re: Biodiesel in reply to Mark - IN., 04-07-2005 20:08:09  
Biodiesel can be of clean used cooking oil or a blend of soybean oil and diesel fuel. A blend of soybean oil and dieal fuel has been available in Minn for at least two years



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kyhayman

04-07-2005 20:53:16




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 Re: Biodiesel in reply to Mark - IN., 04-07-2005 20:08:09  
Nothing 'cheap' about bio diesel. One of the reasons we are still running dinosaurs on tap in our vehicles. Best estimates I have seen are about $2.50 a gallon before taxes for 'new' vegetable oils or rendered animal fats. Cleaned cooking oils arent much cheaper due to the cleaning and trucking costs. I do know some folks using tobacco canvas to strain used cooking oil and cutting it into their bulk tanks at about 5%. Seems to burn ok.

We (as a society) will never go to 'alternative' fuels for price. I am confident that crude oil wont stay at levels to make them economical for long, way too much economic disincentive for that. It will take a conscious effort on the part of all of us to say 'enough' with depending on OPEC and foreign oil.

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PaMike

04-08-2005 09:34:54




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 Re: Biodiesel in reply to kyhayman, 04-07-2005 20:53:16  
One of the large suppliers around me has biodiesel at the pump, and for heating oil. You dont have a choice, its biodiesel or you find another supplier. Odd thing is, they are right in line with the prices other are charging for petro diesel. Now, they say its biodiesel, but i dont know the actually % makeup of the fuel. Kinda odd since everyone else seems to have biodiesel that is much more expensive.

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paul

04-08-2005 07:01:20




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 Re: Biodiesel in reply to kyhayman, 04-07-2005 20:53:16  
Minnesota requires 10% ethanol (from corn mostly) in gasoline; and is 3/4 of the way through moving that to 20%.

2% biodiesel (from soybeans & rendering plants) will be required in diesel fuel next year, that will ramp up to 5% in a few years.

There is a complex relationship between the costs of grain, soymeal, distiller's dried grains, to determine the cost of any of these alternative fuels. The efficencies of the production plants & ecconomies of scale and the increased cost of regular fuels makes it better looking every day.

For the state of Minnesota, the increase in jobs, increase in grain prices to farmers, decrease on pipelines/ refineries (we are about as far as you get from the coasts, end of the hose....) and decrease on shipping raw grain out of state makes these industries an overall positive situation. If one looks at the bigger picture.

--->Paul

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kyhayman

04-08-2005 17:59:36




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 Re: Biodiesel in reply to paul, 04-08-2005 07:01:20  
Thats a great step, I wish all the states would do that. KY is requiring B2 starting in '06. Most of ours will be from animal renderings (we are swimming in it, while not many beans crushed or grown here).

Personally, Id like to see a total conversion to domestic fuels. Just dont see it in the cards, 'big oil' wields too much clout.



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Farmered

04-08-2005 02:24:36




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 Re: Biodiesel in reply to kyhayman, 04-07-2005 20:53:16  
My nephew has the largest soybean processing plant in New York. One of the products he makes is soybean oil. When the difference in cost is favorable he runs 100% soy in his fleet of OTR trucks. Right now he says diesel would have to be 3.00 to equal the value of the soy for feed so he is running regular diesel fuel. As a fuel, he likes soy better because he gets better mileage and less wear on engine parts. The only reason that commercial fuel plants mix in 5% regular diesel is for tax purposes. It is not necessary
for the fuel system. Ed

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John A.

04-07-2005 20:28:06




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 Re: Biodiesel in reply to Mark - IN., 04-07-2005 20:08:09  
Mark, Singer Willie Nelson is a strong supporter of Biodiesel! I think the web site is www.wnbiodiesel.com. or watch RFD-TV for a little while that ad is running pretty regularly.
There may be a link of his regular website.
Try going at it that way. Hope this helps.
Later,
John A.



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John (MO)

04-08-2005 11:18:04




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 Re: Biodiesel in reply to John A., 04-07-2005 20:28:06  
Willie ain't the sharpest tool in the shed, drugs and drink have kind of dulled his thinking a little. I may enjoy some of his music, but I wouldn't hire him to do my thinking for me.



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John A.

04-08-2005 22:10:59




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 Re: Biodiesel in reply to John (MO), 04-08-2005 11:18:04  
John, I agree the WN is a pretty good singer, and may not be the sharpest too in the box. But, Mark asked for a place to get Info about Biodiesel. I simply offered a place to get more info.
So I am go to say this, and I mean no offence But...Before you open your alligator mouth and let it overload your Kildee behind side ....go visit the web site and get some info on the subjest. As long ad the info is straight then, who cares where it comes from. Now wheather you like WN or not he has a soft spot for American Ariculture, namely the American Farmer. so more info on the product that benefts them is something he is trying to keep accurate, Anyway just go look if you haven't, there is a lot of info there.
Later,
John A.

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Van in AR

04-07-2005 23:33:37




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 Re: Biodiesel in reply to John A., 04-07-2005 20:28:06  
Hey John, Willie likes all kinds of "natural" things, just seems normal he would endorse bio diesel.
Van



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gorillatx

04-09-2005 14:07:19




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 Re: Biodiesel in reply to Van in AR, 04-07-2005 23:33:37  
I have been buying "biowillie" for about 5 weeks now. I pass by Carls Corner truck stop & try to always fill up there. Im buying B20 and it is awesome. My 2002 Duramax runs GREAT on it. There is a noticable improvment in performance for me. So far the price has been about the same. Ive actually been buying B20 cheaper than regular Diesel at loves truck stops. Willie is simply a partner (1 of 4 I think) in Biodiesel. He came through a couple weeks or so back & bought 300 dollars worth himself. Willie HAS always supported the farmers and I dont see how turning soybeans into Diesel could hurt em. I would dang sure rather support an American farmer than somebody from the mideast. EVEN if I had to pay a little more to do it. Not to mention it cuts the heck out of emissions. Anybody that knocks Willie dont know squat about him.

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