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OT - From the Country Talk Board

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Dug

03-21-2005 19:32:00




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Question posed: which freezes faster, hot or cold water?

Dug




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Genessis

10-04-2005 07:21:35




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 Re: OT - From the Country Talk Board in reply to Dug, 03-21-2005 19:32:00  
hey i know which frezzes first. its cold water. im doing a science fair project and i tested which freezes the fastest well its cold water. i thought it was hot water. but now i know it cold because since the cold water is already cold the molecules just have to freeze first. hot water has to cool down then freeze so it takes longer for the hot water to freeze.



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JeffE

03-27-2005 18:09:51




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 Re: OT - From the Country Talk Board in reply to Dug, 03-21-2005 19:32:00  
Everything being equal cold water will always freeze faster than hot water. Hot water pipes freezing & cold ones not? Makes perfect sense..... after dinner and a shower you settle down and watch TV, drink a glass or two of (cold) water, go to the bathroom a couple of times, go to bed, get up again in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom again....all use only cold water and keep it moving through the pipes, the hot water stays in the lines and becomes cold water which eventually freezes. All being equal-no water movement through the lines, location to outside wall, etc. the cold would freeze first but we normally use much more cold water than hot.

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Joe (Wa)

03-22-2005 20:28:30




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 Re: OT - From the Country Talk Board in reply to Dug, 03-21-2005 19:32:00  
Man-o-man, not one engineer in this thread? Well I are one.

It takes 1 BTU (British thermal unit) to raise 1 lb of pure water 1ºF @ sea level. That is called sensible heat because it can be measured on a thermometer.

It takes 144 BTU to change the state of 1 lb of pure water @ sea level from liquid @ 32ºF to ice @ 32ºF. That is called latent heat of fusion. Latent because it can not be measured with a thermometer like sensible heat.

It takes 970.4 BTU to change the state of 1 lb of pure water @ sea level from liquid @ 212ºF to steam @ 212ºF. That is called latent heat of evaporation.

That is an irrefutable law of science.

Joe

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buickanddeere

03-22-2005 09:09:59




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 Re: OT - From the Country Talk Board in reply to Dug, 03-21-2005 19:32:00  
In a sealed or open container? As previously stated are we assuming both have te same minerla contenet but that's a pretty minor factor here. We have trouble with our water here freezing at 4 degrees C or about 39F.



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Mike (WA)

03-22-2005 08:17:20




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 Re: OT - From the Country Talk Board in reply to Dug, 03-21-2005 19:32:00  
In other news, which will boil first, hot water or cold? Answer (from an unscientific experiment at our house, supervised by 10 year old daughter), is both take about the same length of time (when put on the same stove burner set on Hi). Go figure.



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gspig

03-22-2005 07:27:50




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 Re: OT - From the Country Talk Board in reply to Dug, 03-21-2005 19:32:00  
If the question is related to the hot water pipe in a house freezing before a cold water line next to it, the hot water pipe freezes first because (as noted in the ice maker comment)the hot water will have fewer impurities in it as compared to the cold water line. More impurities, the lower the temp needed to freeze.



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lucasss

03-22-2005 05:44:59




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 Re: OT - From the Country Talk Board in reply to Dug, 03-21-2005 19:32:00  
i was at the bus garage a few years ago and this arguement was in process. so we put a tray of each in the fridge and the cold water iced over first. not to scientific but it seemed the cold water got down to 32 degrees first. lucas



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John M

03-22-2005 05:10:07




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 Re: OT - From the Country Talk Board in reply to Dug, 03-21-2005 19:32:00  
Looks like a job for MYTHBUSTERS,or you could just try it and see.



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MeAnthony

03-22-2005 05:05:52




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 Re: OT - From the Country Talk Board in reply to Dug, 03-21-2005 19:32:00  
The way I recall it being explained in high school science class was that the hot water, being hot, warmed the air above it, which would then rise and cold air would move in. Basically in created a breeze/wind chill effect, causing the hot water to lose it's heat faster than the cold water. My question, which was never answered, was what happens when the two separate bodies of water reach the same temp.? Would they not, at that point, continue to freeze at the same rate?

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Matt from CT

03-22-2005 04:59:09




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 Re: OT - From the Country Talk Board in reply to Dug, 03-21-2005 19:32:00  
The correct answer is...

It *can*

Not that it does -- as in always does.

===== =
Reminds me of years ago at the firehouse. Had a problem one very, very hot & humid July day -- the soda cans where freezing (like half of the soda!) soon as you popped them.

The Fire Chief at time, who was a registered Chemical Engineer & worked as R&D Director, tried to explain to us young bucks the physics of the situation and why you had to have a really hot day to see this affect of cold & pressure in the cans produce the rapid freezing that you wouldn't see on a normal day! Can't remember the whole story, just remember us young bucks were looking at him like he had finally lost his marbles :)

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Galen

03-22-2005 04:46:29




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 Re: OT - From the Country Talk Board in reply to Dug, 03-21-2005 19:32:00  
Well - all I know is my neighbor where we used to live, put a modular house over a 4' crawlspace. His pipes froze the first winter. Only the HOT ones froze and the cold ones were out board from them. We ran into this a lot when I was servicing mobile/modular homes.



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Leland

03-21-2005 22:41:50




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 Re: OT - From the Country Talk Board in reply to Dug, 03-21-2005 19:32:00  
Well I manage 2 carwashes and it's a fact that HOT freezes 3x faster than cold,on our weeps we run cold only no ,matter how cold it is. And tring to keep a fluid operation going at +5* is a real job bacause people still want clean cars even if it's -15* outside then they don't understand why soap freezes when it hits there car.



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HTR

03-21-2005 22:10:43




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 Re: OT - From the Country Talk Board in reply to Dug, 03-21-2005 19:32:00  
There is lots of info doing a google search, if you read enough of them you can find why the hot water pipe bursts first.

Another thought, if you have one foot in a bucket of boiling water, and the other foot in a bucket of ice water. On the average you would be comfortable.

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CLW

03-21-2005 21:34:28




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 Re: OT - From the Country Talk Board in reply to Dug, 03-21-2005 19:32:00  
Read that question on a "spoof" board not long ago. Answer is cold will freeze first.
CLW



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Steve_ne

03-21-2005 21:24:48




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 Re: OT - From the Country Talk Board in reply to Dug, 03-21-2005 19:32:00  
distilled water freeze faster because its been boiled less salts, air bubbles...

Then it also just looks as if it freezes faster. Like frost on a window or on a cold glass. The two extremes makes it look like its freezing faster. Every one see that first little layer of ice form and just figures that the hot freezes faster, But takes longer for the whole cup.



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Davis In SC

03-21-2005 21:04:30




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 Re: OT - From the Country Talk Board in reply to Dug, 03-21-2005 19:32:00  
I once saw/read/heard that 2 identical containers of water, one hot, one cold, were set on a block of ice. Hot one froze first, because the heat made it melt into ice & gain surface contact, so it chilled faster. Might just be another Urban Legend..... .....



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Dug

03-21-2005 20:58:26




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 Re: OT - From the Country Talk Board in reply to Dug, 03-21-2005 19:32:00  
When placed in identical containers in equal amounts, cold water will freeze first.

Wanna bet?

Dug



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old

03-21-2005 20:56:07




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 Re: OT - From the Country Talk Board in reply to Dug, 03-21-2005 19:32:00  
Hot has to do with the fact that it is expaned more then cold and as water freezes it expands. Unless physics has changed sine I was in school that is



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jdemaris

03-21-2005 20:05:31




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 Re: The question is too vague in reply to Dug, 03-21-2005 19:32:00  
The question posed is not specific enough to be answered with certainty. The amount of water in the two containers makes a difference, and the just how hot the hot water is, also makes a difference. Two small ice trays, one filled with cold water, the other filled with warm water - and the cold tray will freeze first. Take two gallon pails of water, one cold, the other just about boiling temperature, put them in a below 32 degrees F. environment, and the bucket of near boiling water will freeze before the cold. I.e., there is not just one answer to your question.

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Bob/Ont

03-22-2005 03:55:29




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 Re: The question is too vague in reply to jdemaris, 03-21-2005 20:05:31  
JD, the ??? was prompted by an old discussion about water pipes freezing under a house. The hot and cold running side by side with the hot water pipe always freezing and the cold not. People wonder why, it's the accelleration of heat loss from the greater temp diff that makes the hot water freeze before the cold.
Later Bob



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jdemarisj

03-22-2005 08:35:41




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 Re: The question is too vague in reply to Bob/Ont, 03-22-2005 03:55:29  
I didn't see the prior discussion, but it doesn't change physics. I've heard similar
hot-water, cold-water freezing questions for years. I also know that there is still some
degree are argumentation on the matter, even among experts in the field. Due to that
situation, we did some "real world" experiments when I was in college studying physics
and water science. So, we did some tests of simply putting water in a freezer at various
temperatures and container sizes. Hot water does NOT always freeze first, period. Now, take the actual case of hot water pipes usually freezing before cold water pipes do,
when side by side and experiencing the same ambient temperature. From what you have
said, the hot water actually takes on a memory of its own, and since it is losing heat faster
than the cold water pipe at the outset, even once it gets to the exact same temperature at the cold
water pipe, it persists with its accelerated rate and freezes first. I don't believe it, and
there are many people more knowledgeable then I that also don't believe it. From what I've observed, read, and/or studied - the freezing pipe situation occurs
because cold water retains more gas than warmer water - and this situation lowers the
freezing point of cold water. In the pipe situation, we conducted a test using 1/2" copper
type L pipe, the two pipes parallel to each other and 12" apart. Air temperature was 8
degrees F, and surface temp. of the pipes was checked every 15 minutes. Water was not
run though either of the pipes during the test. The cold water pipe cooled down slighty
faster than the hot water pipe, but the hot water pipe froze first - this because the water
within it had a slightly higher freezing point.

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Bob/Ont

03-22-2005 18:29:49




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 Re: The question is too vague in reply to jdemarisj, 03-22-2005 08:35:41  
JD, I have heard from people who have been to school like yourself that the hot water had more deg to lose and the teat transfer built up more momentun to overcome the Latern Heat of Fusion to turn into ice. Now thinking about it, that applies more to your pails of water experiment than water pipes with water standing in them for a time and freezing over night. They would likely cool to the same temp long before they freeze.
Later Bob

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e

03-21-2005 20:02:08




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 Re: OT - From the Country Talk Board in reply to Dug, 03-21-2005 19:32:00  
Hot water looses heat faster than cold(ie the time rate temperature change of hot water is higher than that of cold water due to a larger temperature delta). However, if you look at the total time to freeze, cold water goes from it's initial temperature to 32F faster than hot water does. Questions?



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jokers

03-22-2005 06:59:41




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 Re: OT - From the Country Talk Board in reply to e, 03-21-2005 20:02:08  
That`s the right answer. Hot water cools at a faster rate due to the temperature differential but cool water is already closer to freezing.

For the naysayers, just think about this. At some point the formerly hot water is now cool, what makes the the now cool water that was hot freeze any faster than water that started cooler?

If the question was what water, hot or cold, cools at a faster rate in the same environment, the correct answer would be the hot water because a primary factor in cooling is delta T. Basic heat transfer.

Russ

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Allan in NE

03-21-2005 20:09:53




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 Re: OT - From the Country Talk Board in reply to e, 03-21-2005 20:02:08  
Question:

Put a thermometer in an ice cube. Stick that ice cube in a freezer set at -30° F. What would the thermometer read?

Allan



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Dug

03-21-2005 20:59:23




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 Re: OT - From the Country Talk Board in reply to Allan in NE, 03-21-2005 20:09:53  
-30

Dug



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Allan in NE

03-21-2005 19:57:52




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 Re: OT - From the Country Talk Board in reply to Dug, 03-21-2005 19:32:00  
Now Dug,

Ya know darned well that hot water doesn't freeze. If it were to freeze, it wouldn't be hot anymore. :>)

Allan



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Farmermatt

03-21-2005 19:49:26




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 Re: OT - From the Country Talk Board in reply to Dug, 03-21-2005 19:32:00  
COLD Im sure some will argue with that, but too bad. Common sense and scientific reality prevails.
Matt



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thurlow

03-21-2005 19:44:47




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 Re: OT - From the Country Talk Board in reply to Dug, 03-21-2005 19:32:00  
Fellow who worked for me tapped into the hot water line under his sink for his supply line to his refrigerator ice-maker; don't know if it froze faster or slower..... ....



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John *.?-!.* cub owner

03-21-2005 20:16:40




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 Re: OT - From the Country Talk Board in reply to thurlow, 03-21-2005 19:44:47  
That's a common practice by the old time appliance men. Not because the hot freezes faster, but because more of the sediment and impurities settle out in the heater so there is less danger of debris in the water maker valve. Also the ice maker uses such a little bit of water at a time it is close to room temperature when it enters anyway.



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Glenn F.

03-21-2005 19:43:35




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 Re: OT - From the Country Talk Board in reply to Dug, 03-21-2005 19:32:00  
HOT!



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Glenn F.

03-21-2005 19:52:28




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 Re: OT - From the Country Talk Board in reply to Glenn F., 03-21-2005 19:43:35  
The molecules are moving around more thus coming in contact with the surface more where the cold temperature is coming from.



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Harley

03-21-2005 20:24:53




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 Re: OT - From the Country Talk Board in reply to Glenn F., 03-21-2005 19:52:28  
The hot. It has fewer air bubbles or molicules or something and the water molicules conduct the temperature changing effect. Con"t make sense, but who cares as long as they cool the Jim Beam. Harley



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matterhan

03-28-2005 15:25:35




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 Re: OT - From the Country Talk Board in reply to Harley, 03-21-2005 20:24:53  
The hot water pipes freeze first is simple. The water in the pipes is not always hot. The temps of the water in both of the pipes is essentially the same after probably an hour of sitting still. But the cold water pipes will have some mineral and deposits built up while the hot water will keep the pipes scoured clean. The deposits will act a insulation and as a bit of a cusion to prevelt freezing and pipe bursting while the hot water pipes do not have that.

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