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OT Tech Nations

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dr.sportster

03-10-2005 05:52:38




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Just read on Forbes .com that the United States has slipped to fifth place in the worlds tech nations.Would you beleive Singapore is number one now.We are not even second we are FIFTH.What is going on with that.




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Bartt

03-11-2005 14:17:59




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 Re: OT Tech Nations in reply to dr.sportster, 03-10-2005 05:52:38  
Here"s a couple of quotes from the past.Not sure if they are accurate as to the author but the sentiments are right on. "Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people". P T Barnum. " People in the United States pretty much have the government they deserve" Abe Lincoln. Food for thought??



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tlak

03-10-2005 14:11:27




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 Re: OT Tech Nations in reply to dr.sportster, 03-10-2005 05:52:38  
If we raise trade embargoes the other countries will retaliate. With all the emphasis on portfolios you would think the kids should be able to write a novel when they enter college. Not so.
I think it will be a long haul but the other countries that are receiving our jobs will have to pay more because those workers will want more but the jobs will just move to the next sweat shop.
A lot of companies are jumping on the orient express (I know Europe)saying we should do it like japan and china. Latest story I heard was a Chinese worker was thrown in the street to beg after his arm was cut off in an industrial accident. Unions got you 8hr day/40hr week. wiped out child labor. A lot more but maybe they need to negotiate more on keeping jobs. Might be like the airlines, if the workers/pilots give up money to keep the airline solvent then the bosses take a raise.
If the Vice president's company is moving money off shore not to pay taxes what can you expect from our gov.

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Hugh MacKay

03-10-2005 11:12:10




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 Re: OT Tech Nations in reply to dr.sportster, 03-10-2005 05:52:38  
dr. sportster: So simple North America want high saleries and low priced comsumer goods.

Back in the 1970s I used to do contract work for Esso at one of their refineries. By 1980 all the supervisors were complaining about cut backs, had to get by with less staff, etc. I said, "Boys it's a simple answer, when I first came here all dozen or so management personell were driving Buicks, Olds, Mercury's Imperials, etc. Today you are all driving Toyotas, Hyndias, etc. You cant expect unemployed auto workers to buy gasoline."

Today the number one selling car in America is Toyoto Camery. Smarten up, the blame is with each and everyone of you.

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Greywolf

03-10-2005 11:43:02




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 Re: OT Tech Nations in reply to Hugh MacKay, 03-10-2005 11:12:10  
Hugh....you and rusty have both hit the nail on the head.

And not to bash anyone...or start an argument. Besides the stockholder it is the worker him/herself. It's a never ending circle.. "I need a raise because..... .." you can put your own finish to it. After a bit...and this is common sense guys...you all know it..complain about it.. it all comes full circle at some point in time. Things can't keep going up and up and up. There is a ceiling and the ceiling has been hit....HARD.

I'll admit...I have a sour taste for unions...but they are just as much to blame as anyone else. They share the blame. Striking for more pay...more benefits. Harder to let someone go. Job security..etc etc etc. A few rotten apples figured out they can slack and not get fired. Poor quality work and still get paid. It's like a rolling snowball. It got bigger and bigger and bigger. There went the work ethics...our kids have heard it for years... and we now reap what we have sown.

Now the circle has closed. The US worker has reached the top of the pay scale and said they need more. Econ 101...supply and demand. The company has said no more and moved on. Focusing on the stockholder instead of the "family".

Just think what this country would be like if the farmer had the capability of doing what the union worker has done for years. The cost of gas would be miniscule compared to the food bill everyone would be faced with.

My flame retardant suit just got zipped up and I'm off my soapbox.

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Mike (WA)

03-10-2005 12:04:10




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 Re: OT Tech Nations in reply to Greywolf, 03-10-2005 11:43:02  
No need to suit up on my account- I think you stated the problem correctly, and articulately. A neighbor of mine is the local Teamsters rep., and I finally shamed him into staying away from Walmart- in his mind, he had separated his personal life from his professional life, and since he wanted to buy everything as cheaply as possible, what's wrong with going to Walmart? Amazing how many folks just don't get it.

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nubs

03-10-2005 17:20:27




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 Re: OT Tech Nations in reply to Mike (WA), 03-10-2005 12:04:10  
sad part of it is getting only place to shop Yes I am a union member. Like I say everyone complains about Wal Mart but parking lot is full. I try to buy from local merchants but getting harder as places closing.



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Paul in Mich

03-10-2005 13:36:19




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 Re: OT Tech Nations in reply to Mike (WA), 03-10-2005 12:04:10  
Mike, Here in Michigan, the NEA (teacher"s union) has an agreement with the state that school boards shall hire no non union janitors or cafeteria workers in the schools. However, in their own headquarters in Lansing, they hire non union janitors and cafeteria workers because they wont pay union wages. And if that is not hypocritical enough, the AFL-CIO was to hold a state convention in the Cobo convention center in Detroit, but upon learning that since Cobo is oned and operated by the City of Detroit and that an agreement exists wherein all government facilities can only hire union workers, any activity in Cobo must have union electricians, janitors, plumbers, food workers, carpenters, and HVAC engineers. The number of these workers is calculated on the square footage to be rented and by length of time. After the AFL-CIO saw what it was going to cost them to have all these union employees, (which they negotiated), decided they couldnt afford to live by their own rules, and moved the (state) convention to Cleveland. Now then, who is costing who jobs? Unions are part of the problem, but not all the problem. As Hugh Mackay puts it, there is plenty of blame to be shared by all of us. Greed is not an entity reserved or held only by the rich. We are all guilty of greed at times, and we all pay for it.

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dr.sportster

03-10-2005 11:57:33




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 Re: OT Tech Nations in reply to Greywolf, 03-10-2005 11:43:02  
Didnt really want to start a political or union Vs non union thing again.ButI think in general if workers get a decent wage it helps the economy and other business will florish also.If your out of work theres not much extra cash around for consumer spending as they call it.I dont know enough about economics and tarriffs.But when honda was "dumping"the jap bikes into our economy Reagen put on a tarriff to level the playing feild.Why cant something like that work for the cars?

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Hugh MacKay

03-10-2005 13:11:04




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 Re: OT Tech Nations in reply to dr.sportster, 03-10-2005 11:57:33  
dr. sportster: I don't think you need to be aplogizing for starting anything. What is being said here needs to be said. While I live in Canada, our situation is not a lot different from yours.

The crux of the problem here is we the people elect governments who in turn hire bureaucrats to carry out what's best for our countries. Problem is, politicians get elected by people and in turn serve the stock holders, yes they cater to that that multi million dollar group. We the people don't exercise our right often enough. In essence we are to blame. Now just maybe if we carry out enough discussion, get enough people interested. Young guys amoung us could become articulate enough to match whits with the best. If we conduct ourselves professionally, just maybe we could send a couple of young guys off from YT to replace Bush and Martin when the time comes. Just think of the headlines YT educates President of US and Prime Minister of Canada.

I remember as a very young lad, Eisenhower of US, Churchill of Britain, StLaurent of Canada, and other world leaders were having a meeting in Brussels. My grandfather growled, " Just deciding how big of a war they had to start, kill off thousands of our young people, just to sell some milatary hardware for the stock holders thus profits in their back pockets." No my friends, we the people are to blame, we elect what we deserve.

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Davis In SC

03-10-2005 20:29:20




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 Re: OT Tech Nations in reply to Hugh MacKay, 03-10-2005 13:11:04  
Hugh, I am happy to buy Canadian goods..... You & I are on a level playing field... I spend quite a bit each year buying parts from Canada for our business....



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Greywolf

03-10-2005 12:15:31




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 Re: OT Tech Nations in reply to dr.sportster, 03-10-2005 11:57:33  
I agree...a fair wage. But problem is what is fair?? I live on less than $24K a year. How many can live with a wage that low? I don't have the answer.

Each person has to look deep and decide what their priorities are. 5 yr old car?? 2 yr old car?? 1000 sq ft house? 3500 sq ft house? You can go on and on. But when you are completely truthful and sincere... how much of what we say we "need" is actually how much we "want". What more is needed than a roof, full stomach, and transportation? Not much IMO.

As far as the tariffs... I don't have the knowledge to comment with a plausible explanation. Wouldn't even be a WAG if I tried. But if they put that much of a "crimp" on the products...they'd maybe do like has been done. Set up shop in the US.. claim outsourcing on the components.. and assemble here. I don't know, like I said...WAG.

I did hear something interesting the other day. One of my best friends is customer service for an electric motor facility here. They supply the motors for the drill doctor. Each and every one is made in China to the company's specs and shipped in by container. 18,441 motors per. Usage is about 3,500/week at the assembly plant in Washington.

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RustyFarmall

03-10-2005 11:10:06




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 Re: OT Tech Nations in reply to dr.sportster, 03-10-2005 05:52:38  
Well, I've read all the replys, and you all have some pretty good answers, and I will admit that education and government regulations do play a small part in out jobs going overseas, but the number one reason for our jobs leaving is GREED. The number one product of all corporations is PROFIT. If the corporation can find less expensive labor, the profits increase, Why did the mills in New England close down and move to the Carolinas in the fifties? Cheap labor, more profit. Why are cars being manufactured in Tennesee instead of Detroit? More profit. The list goes on and on. Who is it that demands these higher profits? The share and stockholders, namely you and me.
We have met the enemy, he is us!

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Bill from MA

03-10-2005 09:11:24




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 Re: OT Tech Nations in reply to dr.sportster, 03-10-2005 05:52:38  
The world is just changing....

In New England we had huge mills making all kinds
of textiles and shoes. They all shut down and moved to the Carolinas in the 1950's.

They have all since moved off-shore and the same thing is happening with other jobs. (I'm a laid-off software eng myself.).

We all want a $2.00 tee shirt at Walmart, not $40 at Maceys.....

I read a funny article in a business paper months ago, "horse shoers in 1900 (maybe alittle earlier)
could not imagine (approx) 1925 but looking back noone would of wanted to pass a law to stop the manuf. of automobiles.

This same shift is happening today, we understand the economics of it but do not know what the future will be.

Education is definetly an issue. Assumimg the rest of the world is not as smart as we are is a huge mistake.

I am old enough to remember when you could earn a living and buy a home working in manuf. (I'm in the 495 belt outside of Boston). A small house here in the 1970's...maybe $30,000.

Not anymore. Today the average is closer to $300,000.00

Now I believe Dell assembles all it's desktop PC
is the US, so it is not impossible to manuf. here
either but for a quick reduction in costs outsourcing is an option.

Bill

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Gary in Geneva

03-13-2005 03:16:23




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 Re: OT Tech Nations in reply to Bill from MA, 03-10-2005 09:11:24  
They are moving production to China. First the laptops, then desktops, last will be servers. Only business support is in the US. Consumer support is now in India.



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JP in GA

03-10-2005 08:47:56




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 Re: OT Tech Nations in reply to dr.sportster, 03-10-2005 05:52:38  
You sure stirred the pot with this one! My 2c--Here at the experiment station we use a considerable amount of (college)student help, 18 to 23 years old. for the most part I have been impressed with their work ethic, general knowledge, and COMMON SENSE! I know that many, perhaps even most are not this good, but it's not time to lose faith yet. There's still a lot of good people out there.
John

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buickanddeere

03-10-2005 08:37:16




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 Re: OT Tech Nations in reply to dr.sportster, 03-10-2005 05:52:38  
All these boys raised by single Mom"s don"t hang out in the garage or shop working on mechanical projects with her. She doesn"t take them hunting or fishing either. It"s left to the State, television and movies to instill values and education into our children. Makes you wonder if there isn"t some grand plan to shape society into some enlightened person"s vison of perfection.



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sawtooth

03-10-2005 08:18:10




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 Re: OT Tech Nations in reply to dr.sportster, 03-10-2005 05:52:38  
Well, IMHO it's not all just about education. I know of at least a couple sharp college educated young guys that can't find a decent job. The problem looks to me to be the mass exodus of jobs (sucking sound?). Whether you're educated or not how do you compete with countries where costs are less? Workers there can afford to work for less than anyone can live on here. Also relating to this, I saw lately where the United States ranks #25 of all the countries in life expectancy of its citizens! TWENTY FOUR other countries have longer life expectancies! Part of the problem cited is we have a larger class of "lower class" that doesn't get health care. So- how does the U.S. continue to be everybody elses' Santa Claus?

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Paul in Mich

03-10-2005 08:14:28




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 Re: OT Tech Nations in reply to dr.sportster, 03-10-2005 05:52:38  
Three things driving technology away from our borders. High taxes, Govt. regulations, environmentalism.



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chvet73

03-10-2005 08:14:19




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 Re: OT Tech Nations in reply to dr.sportster, 03-10-2005 05:52:38  
It's too bad that most of you have no clue what is going on in education. As a 30+ year shop teacher I can tell you that most of you are so far from reality it's not even funny.
The single largest problem is support from home. Today's parents have no clue what their children are doing. At my school we send out 8 grade reports a year. Most parents response when you call them about their child is that they didn't know their child was failing and why didn't we let them know sooner. It's amazing that when you talk to parents you can tell that 'the apple didn't fall to far from the tree'.
In the areas that I teach, we used to have 5 shops per school now we have 3 or less. The attitude is that every child is going to college and should be prepared for it. The truth is that only a small percentage enroll and few graduate. We are not training our kids for their future.
Bush's No Child Left Behind is a joke. It solves nothing. And to top it off the program is not funded to meet it's own mandates.
As to teachers being overpaid, I don't know where you got that stat, but you better check again. In my area police and fireman make more than I do. They get to retire at full pay after 20 years. We can't even think about retirement until after 30 years. Yet I have to have two degrees, which I paid for myself and have continue to be educated throughout my career. Comprable education to mine in industry would bring me a salary far greater than mine is.
Before you speak on education and the NEA, of which I am a member, check the facts. I would bet that all of you complaining in here have no real clue what it's like to babysit your children every day. Take an active interest in your child's school life and you'll be in for a rude awakining. Sorry for the long rant but I haven't seen one person in this topic who has a clue what is really happening in education. You know despite it all I still enjoy going to work and seeing kids succeed everyday.

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nubs

03-10-2005 17:28:59




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 Re: OT Tech Nations in reply to chvet73, 03-10-2005 08:14:19  
You are so right and I would give you guys a standing ovation. Teachers in general are some of outr unsung heros



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Kansas

03-10-2005 16:51:46




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 Re: OT Tech Nations in reply to chvet73, 03-10-2005 08:14:19  
Right ON!!!!! !!



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brianh

03-10-2005 10:01:48




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 Re: OT Tech Nations in reply to chvet73, 03-10-2005 08:14:19  
Amen! Every parent-teacher conference my wife and I go to we get told, "Your son is doing great. The parents we need to see won't come."



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Old Time Farmer

03-10-2005 09:41:08




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 Re: OT Tech Nations in reply to chvet73, 03-10-2005 08:14:19  
It"s real easy to find a couple examples of some kid who is an idiot and then blame the public schools.

Do a little math and figure out the amount of time a kid spends in school each year vs. the amount of time he spends at home. I"m not saying every school is perfect and every teacher great, but if you want to blame someone, look in a mirror. When you listen to how some parents run down the school, teachers, and anyone with a college degree, it"s no wonder the kid doesn"t think school is important. I bet there"s a quite a few parents who don"t even know what subjects their kids are taking, never go in to conferences, etc.

I did well in school, but some of these kids coming out of the high schools and colleges today are pretty sharp, and it"s not just in college-prep stuff.

The school my kids went to has the largest FFA program in the state and three ag teachers. The wood and metal shops are unbelievable, and the kids can take 3 years of electricity\electronics. Each spring, they put on a show of the projects the kids have been working on, and you wouldn"t believe the quality and sophistication of some of this stuff. My wife and I go every year even though our youngest graduated 25 years ago. China hutches that would probably cost you $3500 at furniture store, one kid restored a Super H to mint condition, another fabricated front wheel fenders for a 4640 that were a lot better than those plastic ones JD sells. Those boys (and girls) are so damn proud of what they have built they"re just about bursting, and the school had 2500 people come through the show over 3 days last year. (This in a town of 3600 people, mostly farming community). It"s not just the skilled trades stuff, the chemistry and physics teachers and the advance math teacher are top-notch. This school has sent a couple farm boys to MIT. I"m glad all my kids went on to college and have good careers. I doubt if they"ll be milking cows, mowing hay and pitching out calf pens at 74 like they"re old man.

As for the "Dr." who said that these boys growing up without the Dad around are going to be all messed up, that"s not always true. I got a daughter who is a school teacher and single Mom raising two boys. She takes them fishing and is teaching them about how an engine works, how to use tools. She can weld better than just about every guy I know, a heck of a lot better than me. When the boys come to stay with me, I get up early to finish chores so I can spend time with them in the shop. They"ll be in there for 8-10 hours just totally wrapped up in building a log cabin out of scrap wood or whatnot.

I"d like to thank you and all the other teachers who work hard for what is probably modest pay. Probably the biggest reward is hearing from a kid 15-20 years later who is real successful and appreciates what you did for them. We had a physics teacher retire here after 30+ years at the school. I think it was 800-900 people showed up for his retirement party and he received over 1200 letters from former students.

If you still want to bash the schools, maybe ask yourself if you could help out in any way. Maybe donate a piece of old equipment for the kids to work on, give some materials, go in and give a talk if you"re a pro at buildin engines. The FFA dairy judging team comes out to my farm every year. I put together about 6 different age classes of heifers and cows, fit them. I put on a couple clinics for the 4Hers and FFAers on clipping their show cattle and fitting them. It takes some of my time, but I get some enjoyment out of it.

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BobMo

03-10-2005 06:38:48




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 Re: OT Tech Nations in reply to dr.sportster, 03-10-2005 05:52:38  
I have to agree with Mike. A lot of this is due to the lack of education kids are getting now days. Schools are so buried in social correctness that they have lost their focus on providing kids with a good education. They no longer focus on the 3 R's which are the basis for any good education and are more concerned with getting kids to spend the hours in school required to get the states money, therefore you have all these classes in left handed basket weaving and canoe paddling.
Employers in this area say that 40% of all 1st time job applicants don't pass drug testing. What’s wrong with this picture? Even though our nation continues to rich it's on the backs of others and we are quickly becoming a 3rd class country. o well, so much for soap boxes
.....

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nubs

03-10-2005 17:34:07




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 Re: OT Tech Nations in reply to j cook, 03-10-2005 07:41:48  
Get real. look around the placeinstead of in sand



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JoeMN

03-10-2005 15:07:37




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 Re: OT Tech Nations in reply to j cook, 03-10-2005 07:41:48  
j cook Thank you for your keen insight, critical thinking and analytical writing. I hope you will identify your alma mater and important individual mentors that influenced your development. If you still mingle with the ignorant masses on occasion,remember that school volunteers are always needed to tutor,help after school study halls,individual help with handicapped,summer school,etc. In fact there are job openings for teachers all over the country. Help yourself to some of that easy money. After all,if those ignoramuses can do it,it should be a snap for you!

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H Otis.

03-10-2005 13:14:27




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 Re: OT Tech Nations in reply to j cook, 03-10-2005 07:41:48  
Some folks like to point fingers. Other folks get active in the school, and make a tangible contribution to education.



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dr.sportster

03-10-2005 07:59:55




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 Re: OT Tech Nations in reply to j cook, 03-10-2005 07:41:48  
Thank you j cook for reminding me never to bring up anything but tools or tractors.My stupid mistake.Sorry guys.



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dr.sportster

03-10-2005 11:33:43




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 Re: OT Tech Nations in reply to dr.sportster, 03-10-2005 07:59:55  
And j cook no offense to you for answering.Im the one who started the discussion.I hate the politics.But was wondering how we are slipping.



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Paul in Mich

03-10-2005 11:40:13




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 Re: OT Tech Nations in reply to dr.sportster, 03-10-2005 11:33:43  
Whether you like politics or not, You cant ask a question which would beg a political response, then lament the fact that you get a political response. Well, you can, but it is to be expected.



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dr.sportster

03-10-2005 15:23:14




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 Re: OT Tech Nations in reply to Paul in Mich, 03-10-2005 11:40:13  
I thought it was economics which was what the Forbes .com article was about.There was no mention of any politics in the original article I referred to.



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Red Dave

03-10-2005 06:17:25




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 Re: OT Tech Nations in reply to dr.sportster, 03-10-2005 05:52:38  
I'd have to know what criteria was used for that ranking before I could form an opinion on it.



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RustyFarmall

03-10-2005 06:02:21




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 Re: OT Tech Nations in reply to dr.sportster, 03-10-2005 05:52:38  
I think it all depends on how you crunch the numbers. I learned long ago that if you arranged those numbers in a fashion to suit your needs then you could make them say anything you wanted.
Singapore might be rated #1 as far as manufacturing those high tech items, but I think the USA is still #1 when it comes to developing those items.



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Mike M

03-10-2005 05:55:04




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 Re: OT Tech Nations in reply to dr.sportster, 03-10-2005 05:52:38  
The way stuff is going I'm surprized were that high up the list.



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Jerry Cent. Mi.

03-10-2005 12:29:52




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 Re: OT Tech Nations in reply to Mike M, 03-10-2005 05:55:04  
Go to a college graduation. I went to one this fall and 30% of the class was foreign. Employers today hire engineering help from other countries and they take our tech. home with them.



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dr.sportster

03-12-2005 04:24:11




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 Re: OT Tech Nations in reply to Jerry Cent. Mi., 03-10-2005 12:29:52  
I am security guard.But in my country I am engineer.



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